Use Enough Gun

[Vince]

As I sit this morning in South Africa I’m recalling last night’s conversation about bullets and guns with the PH’s here.

Like America there’s two schools of thought. Put the bullet in the right place and any animal is going down. The other school of thought is to use enough gun.

The general consensus among the PH’s is that African animals are tougher, and harder to kill, than American game animals. I view it a little differently.

I hate to say it but a lot of Americans are WIMPS. We’ve been led to believe that the 30-06 has massive recoil. That was the issued cartridge in WWII. If you take someone that has never fired a rifle and put a 30-06 in their hands they are going to think the recoil is tremendous.

If on the other hand you start them off with something smaller and work up through the calibers then shoot something bigger than what they decide is their preferred cartridge they may find that the recoil isn’t so bad.

Stock fit is also critical. I’ve had a smaller calibers beat me up worse than my .338 Win Mag due to a poorly fitted stock. You competition shotgun shooters will know what I’m talking about.

While something can’t be deader than dead you either need to wait for the right position of the target, easier to do if you have a three month hunting season versus a week of hunting, or pass on shooting. My Warthog is a classic example of that. It was quartering away. I drove the bullet from the flank to the offside shoulder. Would a smaller cartridge be capable? I was using the Outfitter’s .300 Win Mag. My one and done rifle for North America is a .338 Win Mag.

Larger calibers offer bigger holes which leads to more blood loss which leads to exsanguination.

Vince

 

[JD338]

I came to the conclusion many years ago that there’s no replacement for displacement. Many fellas think that the 338 RUM is overkill but it just works and it works beautifully. Most animals just drop in a heap. Of course bullet placement is everything. Knowing your target animals anatomy AND putting the proper game bullet through the vitals is king.

JD338

 

[8mm Enthusiast]

There's differing philosophies as you pointed out. Just depends on the situation. Many use surgical well placed shots with small calibers while others swear by large frontal diameter. It all comes down to judgement at the end of the day for whatever your particular situation is that you are facing. Me personally, I think that at the appropriate ranges with appropriate calibers and a safe backstop, upper spine/neck shots need to be explored as a way to instantly drop big game with minimal meat damage. That being said, there's nothing wrong with the classic vital organ shot.

 

[highoctane]

For the most part, Ive always believed that horse power is not a replacement for poor bullet placement. Just because one may use a 429 super moose smasher does not mean that you can place a bullet somewhere between the nose and the coccyx and be ok.

 

[Vince]

There's differing philosophies as you pointed out. Just depends on the situation. Many use surgical well placed shots with small calibers while others swear by large frontal diameter. It all comes down to judgement at the end of the day for whatever your particular situation is that you are facing. Me personally, I think that at the appropriate ranges with appropriate calibers and a safe backstop, upper spine/neck shots need to be explored as a way to instantly drop big game with minimal meat damage. That being said, there's nothing wrong with the classic vital organ shot.

Why not combine the two and use surgical placement of a big bullet?

 

[Vince]

For the most part, Ive always believed that horse power is not a replacement for poor bullet placement. Just because one may use a 429 super moose smasher does not mean that you can place a bullet somewhere between the nose and the coccyx and be ok.

I believe you are correct.
It takes proper bullet placement but bigger bullets properly placed beats a small bullet properly placed.

 

[xphunter]

I am going to hunt plains game again in SA this summer Lord willing.
Where I hunt, their minimum caliber is .264
I am taking a 6.5-284 and a 7mm SAUM (Both are bolt action single-shot handguns)
A good friend of mine Darrell Holland, has hunted Africa or South Africa every year for about the last 15 years.
For quite a few years he hunted with a 7mm-08.

 

[salmonchaser]

Discipline, training, practice regardless of cartridge or caliber become the three legged stool of the experienced hunter shooting effectively. The experienced hunter considers the shot going through the animal, the inexperienced hunter shoots at the surface he is given. What appears to be a perfectly broadside shot rarely is, how well you account for that discrepancy can greatly affect the outcome. 5 or 10 degrees off line, if you will, changes what that bullet hits going through. Make it 30 degrees off line, that could have dramatic results. The variable, the animal itself can really mess things up. the longer the shot the more likely this can occur. The perfectly aligned shot is less so when the animal moves during time of flight.
I’m not too worried about deer and antelope, Impala, bushbuck, blessbuck. A 257 Roberts 6.5 creedmore or anything similar will certainly get the job done under any reasonable shot a guy would take. These same cartridges will kill elk size critters as well but you need to be a little more critical of the circumstances. (discipline). I took a quarter away shot on a very large Heartabeast last week. On reflection I didn’t account for the wind when I aligned the shot. My error in judgement would have been disastrous with less gun than the 300 HH. My shot hit further back than the last rib but still managed to pound through the rumen and into the lung. When he emerged on the far hill he was clearly hurt bad but still on his feet and very nearly perfectly broadside. I had the wind call correct that time and the 400 yard finisher was largely academic. I’ve killed a lot of elk and deer, I’m up to 20 some species of african game, Shot Moose, sheep and bears. Occasionally I’ve made a poor shot. I’ll hunt smaller stuff with a 257 roberts class cartridge with no reservations. Give me something bigger than a good Mule deer I’ll step up to match the game. 8 of the 10 animals I shot last week were stone dead, one was hit well but managed to regain his feet, so took a follower and one, as described, was a poor shot. I’m not perfect so I’ll take an edge when I can.

 

[salmonchaser]

I am going to hunt plains game again in SA this summer Lord willing.
Where I hunt, their minimum caliber is .264
I am taking a 6.5-284 and a 7mm SAUM (Both are bolt action single-shot handguns)
A good friend of mine Darrell Holland, has hunted Africa or South Africa every year for about the last 15 years.
For quite a few years he hunted with a 7mm-08.
From teaching other in shooting courses, I have found that everyone is different.
A lot of folks have been shooting large cartridges, and because of recoil their fundamentals are not good.
They like their magnums, but their shooting shows they don't.
Call them wimps or whatever, but I try to get someone into something they can consistently shoot good with

I asked my PH about the 7x57. Fantastic he said. Great cartridge. He thought I should bring my 7x57 and 375 next time. Probably will. I think that means I’ll be hunting Buffaloe and some plains game.

 

[xphunter]

@salmonchaser ,
I'm using the 160 grain LRX in my 7mm SAUM
I plan to use the 140 grain AB (Still doing load development) in my 6.5-284.

Sounds like your trip is going to be FUN!

 

[highoctane]

Why not combine the two and use surgical placement of a big bullet?

Im not sure what you deem "big bullet" because that term is certainly debatable but If "you" are capable of utilizing big bullets then yes, I would say go for it.

However, everyone is not able to withstand what bigger calibers and bullets bring to the table.

 

[bdbrown66]

As I sit this morning in South Africa I’m recalling last night’s conversation about bullets and guns with the PH’s here.

Like America there’s two schools of thought. Put the bullet in the right place and any animal is going down. The other school of thought is to use enough gun.

The general consensus among the PH’s is that African animals are tougher, and harder to kill, than American game animals. I view it a little differently.

I hate to say it but a lot of Americans are WIMPS. We’ve been led to believe that the 30-06 has massive recoil. That was the issued cartridge in WWII. If you take someone that has never fired a rifle and put a 30-06 in their hands they are going to think the recoil is tremendous.

If on the other hand you start them off with something smaller and work up through the calibers then shoot something bigger than what they decide is their preferred cartridge they may find that the recoil isn’t so bad.

Stock fit is also critical. I’ve had a smaller calibers beat me up worse than my .338 Win Mag due to a poorly fitted stock. You competition shotgun shooters will know what I’m talking about.

While something can’t be deader than dead you either need to wait for the right position of the target, easier to do if you have a three month hunting season versus a week of hunting, or pass on shooting. My Warthog is a classic example of that. It was quartering away. I drove the bullet from the flank to the offside shoulder. Would a smaller cartridge be capable? I was using the Outfitter’s .300 Win Mag. My one and done rifle for North America is a .338 Win Mag.

Larger calibers offer bigger holes which leads to more blood loss which leads to exsanguination.

Vince

Karamojo Bell would like a word.

 

[RememberBaker]

I definitely don’t care for recoil. I don’t find a 30-06 at all objectionable but 10 shots from a 348 Winchester with 200 grain bullets from a bench was plenty for me. I have a 9x57 Mauser that is very enjoyable to shoot, but that’s a big bullet slow. I also have a 30 Newton and 300 H&H and those are probably as much as I’d care to shoot.
I don’t enjoy shooting them very much.

 

[JD338]

Why not combine the two and use surgical placement of a big bullet?

That’s exactly what I do

JD338

 

[Ralt71]

I struggle with both sides of this fence as well. I have heard stories of people with small calibers, right placement, animal DRT.. I have had so many examples in real life of people hunting will smaller calibers, great shot, animal ran. I think the bullet type is a huge factor in this and I agree the sectional diameter is hard to compete with. That said, my Mathews bow, shooting 350 arrows puts some massive holes in animals and they manage to go for a pretty good walk after, even with a great shot.. I've seen it play out both ways that I would be in the middle and undecided on what matters the most here.

 

[Vince]

I am going to hunt plains game again in SA this summer Lord willing.
Where I hunt, their minimum caliber is .264
I am taking a 6.5-284 and a 7mm SAUM (Both are bolt action single-shot handguns)
A good friend of mine Darrell Holland, has hunted Africa or South Africa every year for about the last 15 years.
For quite a few years he hunted with a 7mm-08.
From teaching other in shooting courses, I have found that everyone is different.
A lot of folks have been shooting large cartridges, and because of recoil their fundamentals are not good.
They like their magnums, but their shooting shows they don't.
Call them wimps or whatever, but I try to get someone into something they can consistently shoot good with

I am going to hunt plains game again in SA this summer Lord willing.
Where I hunt, their minimum caliber is .264
I am taking a 6.5-284 and a 7mm SAUM (Both are bolt action single-shot handguns)
A good friend of mine Darrell Holland, has hunted Africa or South Africa every year for about the last 15 years.
For quite a few years he hunted with a 7mm-08.
From teaching other in shooting courses, I have found that everyone is different.
A lot of folks have been shooting large cartridges, and because of recoil their fundamentals are not good.
They like their magnums, but their shooting shows they don't.
Call them wimps or whatever, but I try to get someone into something they can consistently shoot good with

I guess what I’m poorly trying to say is to shoot the largest caliber you can for your worst case scenario.
I discovered that when I get tired I drop my shooting side arm and that causes the bullet to go high. I’ve experienced this before and forgot to take it into consideration when I shot the Zebra and at two Warthogs.
I remembered what I’d forgotten about focusing on the fundamentals and knew I could make the shot when we found a Warthog, the one I killed, and I drove a bullet through him to the offside shoulder.
I encourage people to start small in caliber but continue to work up in caliber until they either get to a caliber they cannot handle or they reach a point where they know the caliber they selected will handle the worst case scenario for the game they are hunting.
Here’s the Talley from the last twelve days and I learned a lot.

Wildebeest: 1 Shot, dropped where he stood, facing me straight on.

Impala: 1 shot ran 40 Yards and down.

Gemsbok: 2 misses, dropped shoulder/arm

Gemsbok: 1 shot in the neck anchored and walked up and put one in the chest to finish.

Zebra: 1 shot, high and she moved as the trigger broke. Finished with a frontal chest shot and she was dead. Took all day to put the final round in. I only thought I was tired when I made the first shot.

Nyala: 1 shot anchored and walked up and put a finishing shot in the chest.

Kudu: 1 shot took two jumps and flipped over dead 20 Yards from where I shot him. Facing full on frontal chest shot.

Warthog: 1 shot miss

Warthog: 1 shot miss

Finally got a decent night’s sleep.

Warthog: 1 shot quartering away ran 20 Yards and DOA.

I learned a lot this trip. I temporarily forgot my fundamentals and it showed in my shooting. I also learned that I’m pretty quiet when moving through the bush when I want to be. The PH said he had to look behind him a few times to make sure I was still with him. I walked within 5 Yards of a Nyala cow and she didn’t realize I was there for a good thirty seconds. I also came to realize that I like stalking close.

I learned things that I wouldn’t have learned as fast if not out hunting for almost two weeks. Jannie, the tracker looked at me and said, “You are quiet.” If I am tired I need to watch my arm position. My dropping the shooting arm, something easy to do, for me, when I’m tired caused me to miss what was usually a very easy shot.

I don’t mind destroying meat to put an animal down if that’s my best shot opportunity. A little bit of meat is better than no meat at all.

Perhaps wimp isn’t the right word but I do think people should continue to work their way up the cartridge ladder until they get to the largest caliber they can effectively handle for the worst case scenario of any shot they may take and be willing to pass on shots that are marginal.

I shot a borrowed .300 Win Mag for everything.

Vince

 

[Vince]

Bullet construction, design, sectional density are also important factors for consideration.

Vince

 

[xphunter]

From teaching others in shooting courses, I have found that everyone is different.
A lot of folks have been shooting large cartridges, and because of recoil, their fundamentals are not good.
They like their magnums, but their shooting shows they don't.
Call them wimps or whatever, but I try to get someone into something they can consistently shoot good with.
The guys I am referring to like their magnum cartridges.
They also do not realize they have poor fundamentals.
Bad shots on paper, steel or game always seem to be something else, and seems to evaporate from their memory quickly. Kind of a human nature thing here.

Yesterday, when Glenn and I were shooting out to 1K, we had three guys go by on on the public land to shoot elsewhere. They wanted to practice at distance, but the best place to do that was where we were at.
They came back later on and we were about done. They asked if they could run out and put one target down range.
We told them the distances we had steel at, and they put their target near our 625 yard 12" steel. Their target was 10" by about 20" wide.
One guys was fairly new to the game, and he was having difficulty.
They were stunned were shooting specialty pistols at those distances (300, 400, 510, 625, 900 and 1010 yards).

When they got done, they came over to see what were shooting (rear-grip 223 Rem and a rear grip and center-grip 6GT, plus Glenn's center-grip 22 Creed) .
We ended up talking the new guy into shooting the 223 Rem SP at 300 yards (10" steel).
Before that we did some coaching and dry firing practice.
A couple of center hits later the other 2 "experienced shooters" joined in.
The third guy kept missing at 300-Guessing he was jerking on the trigger, as he was all over the place. He gave up after 4 or 5 attempts.
Then we moved to the 12" steel and the new guy center-punched or very close to it (under 2 inches from center).
The guy that had been doing the coaching, then had to try at 500 yards-He never hit it.
NOTE: They had been shooting AR-10 and AR15 Platforms (6.5 Creed and 223 Remington)

I am pretty sure, that the most experienced guy also had some issues with his fundamentals as well.
Previously, when they were away from us, Glenn and I could hear their shooting, and they were shooting fast.
Even when they moved near us, the experienced guy was shooting his AR quite quickly for 625 yards.
I was listening to his coaching and it was pretty good.

All three of these guys were Good Guys!
Everyone messes up off the bench and in the field.
Another negative of big boomer or heavy recoiling guns, is your fundamentals need to be even better, especially when shooting from weird positions.

In terms of a good day, when I was running my rear grip 6GT (Shooting factory ammo) yesterday. It is one of my loaner pistols for WY-SHOT.
I had no misses until 900 yards...I had it in my head it was 800 yards, SO OF COURSE, my shot fell short. Guess what? I made a mistake!
I think I may have missed my first shot at 1K as well.

 

[xphunter]

@Vince ,
Just read your last post-Good stuff.
Honesty and transparency are epic for learning, and you have it-That's great.
Kudos to you!

My skill set is constantly changing due to my physical and mental weariness or lack of it.
I really try to be aware of that.

I like to use different stuff, sometimes smaller stuff. Why? I like using different stuff.

I took a 357 Magnum to South Africa the first time I went...And my 7mm Dakota XP-100