VELOCITY - VELOCITY - VELOCITY - VELOCITY

[bullet]

Foot pounds of energy are absolutely dependent upon velocity. No velocity, no energy and in fact without velocity there is no momentum without momentum there is no foot pounds of energy. Wait, there is static energy but with out velocity there is no bullet down the bore, out the bore and into the game. Velocity allows us to talk about internal ballistics, external ballistics and terminal ballistic.

Velocity, Momentum, Energy and most important of all is accuracy for shot placement but even accuracy would be mute with out Velocity. Velocity!!!!!!!!! To much, to little, just enough, bullet construction, distance from target, size of game, field conditions, on and on and on - it is a wonder we kill anything, hit our intended target but certainly all of this would be mute, void, impossible, negated if it were not for velocity.

Frankly Velocity becomes the reason for our arguments over cartridges, impact results and terminal results on game. It is the bases for our arguments for and against bullet design, trajectory, stability of the bullet in flight over great distance along with mass, sectional density and so on.

WOW!!!!! I do find myself giving great attention to Velocity. Oh by the way when we say, "the animal won't know the difference of 100 or 200fps or even 500fps difference," we are speaking foolishly so as to justify some notion we have concerning a certain cartridge. The animal if it is dead knows nothing and if it were not dead cannot compute or define it's condition in terms of knowing the difference. 1. Because they do not think in terms as we do and don't realize what we realize in the terms we realize them so it is foolish to say the animal won't know the difference because it can't know and doesn't know nor will they ever be able to know. Why? 2. Because the animal has nothing to compare the experience of being shot and killed against and wouldn't know how to determine that anyway. Oh, buy the way, anyone ever seen the difference of hitting a hog with a 22LR and a 22-250. Both pigs died, they never new the difference because neither pig experienced what he other pig went through. Neither pig could define the difference and if they could somehow experience the others pigs death, they still could not relate the difference that the velocity made. Yet, I saw the difference that the velocity caused.

Velocity, without it we all have nothing to talk about when it comes to ballistics, hunting, or guns. I find VELOCITY extremely interesting and engaging whether not enough, to much or just enough. :shock: :roll: :wink: :lol: 8)

 

[JD338]

Agree, you need velocity to make everything work but don't get caught up in it. An extra 100 fps really isn't going to make a difference.
Just remember High Velocity Sells, Accuracy Kills.

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

Oh, buy the way, anyone ever seen the difference of hitting a hog with a 22LR and a 22-250. Both pigs died, they never new the difference because neither pig experienced what he other pig went through. Neither pig could define the difference and if they could somehow experience the others pigs death, they still could not relate the difference that the velocity made. Yet, I saw the difference that the velocity caused.

Velocity, without it we all have nothing to talk about when it comes to ballistics, hunting, or guns. I find VELOCITY extremely interesting and engaging whether not enough, to much or just enough. :shock: :roll: :wink: :lol: 8)

I agree. Very few prairie dogs (from the thousands I have shot) died soon after shot with a 22lr. Now the 223 22-250 and 220 Swift made a HUGE difference. Chunkage and flipage everywhere. :wink: 8) :lol:

 

[Guy Miner]

When shooters say something like:

"the animal won't know the difference of 100 or 200fps or even 500fps difference"

I believe they're just trying to state that although velocity is important, perhaps we shouldn't chase it at the expense of other important factors such as accuracy or safety. Sometimes other factors become important too, like brass life, or proper functioning of the firearm.

Regards, Guy

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Sometimes this help to put it in perspective...

100 fps is 68 miles per hour (or darn close to it).....100-200 fps is not much help to any bullet from an energy standpoint.

From a long range (800+ yards) accuracy standpoint...speed matters more, but so does ballistic coefficient.

In summary...velocity is one part of the equation, but certainly not the ONLY part.

 

[bullet]

When shooters say something like:

"the animal won't know the difference of 100 or 200fps or even 500fps difference"

I believe they're just trying to state that although velocity is important, perhaps we shouldn't chase it at the expense of other important factors such as accuracy or safety. Sometimes other factors become important too, like brass life, or proper functioning of the firearm.

Regards, Guy

Guy I agree some are saying that one should not chase velocity just for velocity sake. I was making reference to those who really put down velocity in their cal thinking that extra does not really have an impact. Yes, there are many other factors to consider that is why I tried to balance my comments. Thanks for your response which allows me to be more clear concerning my comments.

 

[str8meat]

this agurement can be used in archery too. as a deers reflex is 700 fps. and the fastest bow on the market is 350 fps. which a deer move 2 times faster than an arrow. so for archers be quite and be close to unsuspecting game. hence quick kills. rifle hunters deer dont dodge bullets poor shooting makes critters hard to kill.

 

[Big Squeeze]

Who`s on foyst!......What`s on second!.....I don`t know is on thoyd!

Velocity is part of the equation and is certainly needed, but it is not all of it! Bullet selection and shot placement are equally as important.

Balance is also the key! For a few cartridges and for the game being hunted, they are needlessly too powerful. Extra un-needed power always comes with an axtra cost; in more punishing recoil, more reloading costs, and higher costs with the initial rifle purchase.

Velocity and enegy #`s on paper are great to read about and do comparisons, but most animal anatomy and brain if I`m not mistaken, is located in the center and skull of the animal, Therefore, the bullet doesn`t need to penetrate by doing a complete pass through, then penetrate fully a tree on the other side of the animal in order for there to be a successful kill.

For example, take the 375 cartridges. The 378 Wby & 375 RUM vs the 375 H&H and the 375 Ruger. All are loaded up with 300 gr. FMJ`s. The quarry is caped buffalo. All PH`s will usually,should and always get a hunter to within a 100 yard range for the shot.

Regardless of the # comparisons in velocity and energy on paper, these 4 cartridges are all very capable of complete bullet pass throughs on buffalo while doing the same damage to the vitals. All 4 have more than enough bullet speed at the POI necessary for proper bullet expansion during the pass through. The initially slower bullets coming from the H&H and the Ruger by some 200-300 fps, will expand just as nicely if not better as the faster bullets coming from the other two, which translates to equal stopping power, EVEN THOUGH the #`s on paper favor the 378 and the RUM.

Given the same caliber, does more velocity and energy #`s translate into better stopping power? Nope! Not necessarily! The same above, can also be said when comparing a 416 Remy to a 416 Wby or even a 458 Win to the 458 Lott.

More bullet speed for the longer range plains here and for African game has the advantage in flatter trajectory. But here again as well, that doesn`t necessarily mean more stopping power at the POI. Given the proper bullet being used, a 300 or 400 yard downrange velocity of say 2200 fps vs 1900 or 2000 fps, will make no difference in the relative affect GIVEN the same shot placement on the animal because here again, the vitals are located in the animal`s center, not elsewhere!

So while velocity along with energy is needed for penetration and proper bullet expansion, it should not be factored in as a,,, do all,,, be all,,,and an end all substitute.

 

[bullet]

Agree, you need velocity to make everything work but don't get caught up in it. An extra 100 fps really isn't going to make a difference.
Just remember High Velocity Sells, Accuracy Kills.

JD338

Your point JD has a lot of truth to it as long as accuracy is not to slow to get the job done.

 

[Richracer1]

I agree with all of the above in regards to velocity, accuracy, safety, BC, SD, energy and so on. Each person has their own goals for how a specific rifle, handgun, shotgun should perform with the selected ammunition and intended target.

My personal list of priorities while developing a load for a rifle is:

1) Safety - For me and others that maybe around me.

2) Accuracy - I load for the most accurate load and let the velocity be what it is. In addition, once I find a load that satisfies my accuracy goal, I don't see the need to keep trying other powders and so on just to attain a certain velocity.

If your goal is a certain velocity from a specific rifle, that's your choice and I wish you well on attaining it.

 

[bullet]

I agree with all of the above in regards to velocity, accuracy, safety, BC, SD, energy and so on. Each person has their own goals for how a specific rifle, handgun, shotgun should perform with the selected ammunition and intended target.

My personal list of priorities while developing a load for a rifle is:

1) Safety - For me and others that maybe around me.

2) Accuracy - I load for the most accurate load and let the velocity be what it is. In addition, once I find a load that satisfies my accuracy goal, I don't see the need to keep trying other powders and so on just to attain a certain velocity.

If your goal is a certain velocity from a specific rifle, that's your choice and I wish you well on attaining it.

 

[bullet]

For some reason other than the fact I am not a good writer, I have failed to actually get my point across.

Accuracy is very valid for any cartridge and that accuracy should be in the limits of that cartridge design when getting there and at the same time having the velocity that represents why the cartridge was developed in the first place.

That is why if I want more velocity to reach farther or hit game harder and get better wound channel results and a 30-30 is not giving it to me; I just move up to a more powerful cartridge like th 308 or 30-06 because they will give me more of what I want and need to get the job done. Note that 100fps does make a difference or physics is only a subject for witchcraft. All I am saying is don't dismiss a 100fps more or 200fps more because you are not willing, or can not afford to move up to a more powerful cartridge for the extra. Will what you have work? Yes!!! but to only the degree of it's potential, that is why at times we all reach for more because even if we can't see the difference, the difference is taking place.

Once again I was not promoting Velocity at all nor was I promoting velocity at all cost. I sure hope that is clearer or at least I am being understood more clearly.

 

[FOTIS]

This is one cool discussion! Bravo!

 

[hubcap]

Well there Mr. bullet : I share your admiration for speed. If all I wanted was accuracy I would probably be happy with some of the factory stuff. Accuracy and speed combined with the proper bullet is exactly why I reload my own ammo. I want it all. Its probably true that a lot of guys that like loading there own ammo want both also. In most cases it is not all that difficult to get both speed and accuracy, so why not do it. I suppose if case life and paper punching is a higher priority for some shooters that,s fine too. But for killing I simply insist on both accuracy and speed. and of course safety 1st.

 

[JD338]

Agree, you need velocity to make everything work but don't get caught up in it. An extra 100 fps really isn't going to make a difference.
Just remember High Velocity Sells, Accuracy Kills.

JD338

Your point JD has a lot of truth to it as long as accuracy is not to slow to get the job done.

bullet,

Agree, I'm with ya.

JD338

 

[Richracer1]

I agree with all of the above in regards to velocity, accuracy, safety, BC, SD, energy and so on. Each person has their own goals for how a specific rifle, handgun, shotgun should perform with the selected ammunition and intended target.

My personal list of priorities while developing a load for a rifle is:

1) Safety - For me and others that maybe around me.

2) Accuracy - I load for the most accurate load and let the velocity be what it is. In addition, once I find a load that satisfies my accuracy goal, I don't see the need to keep trying other powders and so on just to attain a certain velocity.

If your goal is a certain velocity from a specific rifle, that's your choice and I wish you well on attaining it.

I also for got to mention, is that when I start developing, I try to start with a powder that, 1) I have already and 2) gave the highest velocities per the reloading information available.

Why handicap yourself from the start.

 

[bullet]

I agree with all of the above in regards to velocity, accuracy, safety, BC, SD, energy and so on. Each person has their own goals for how a specific rifle, handgun, shotgun should perform with the selected ammunition and intended target.

My personal list of priorities while developing a load for a rifle is:

1) Safety - For me and others that maybe around me.

2) Accuracy - I load for the most accurate load and let the velocity be what it is. In addition, once I find a load that satisfies my accuracy goal, I don't see the need to keep trying other powders and so on just to attain a certain velocity.

If your goal is a certain velocity from a specific rifle, that's your choice and I wish you well on attaining it.

I also for got to mention, is that when I start developing, I try to start with a powder that, 1) I have already and 2) gave the highest velocities per the reloading information available.

Why handicap yourself from the start.

Amen, my sentiments also DITTO

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Energy = mass x velocity squared.
The actual formula for foot pounds of energy is:
mass in grain, x velocity (in fps) x velocity divided by 450240. So velocity is twice as important as mass in the energy department.
Said another way, a 10% increase in velocity gives you a 20% increase in energy.
Personally I feel momentum is more important for crushing bones and breaking thinks. (Momentum is equal to Mass x velocity.), but velocity helps the bullet open up, so the momentum can be applied to a larger diameter hole. This is calculated as:
Big hole x all the way through = higher percent of successful hunt.

In addition, long range ballistics are a factor of two things: Velocity, and BC. At long range, the higher the velocity, the less the effects of time, wind and gravity, the more I can be Wrong, and still have a big hole, and the way through, and a dead critter for the freezer...

 

[jtoews80]

Interesting conversation, good job Bullet. In my mind, I cannot out run a 30-30 170 grn bullet @ 30 yds. It would do terrible damage if it's bullet was directed at me by a skilled marksman for whatever reason. Likewise my 30-378 would do considerably more damage with a 180 grn bullet @ 30 yds, but I would still only be dead(if I were a game animal, no difference to the animal. dead is dead). However, I would only be worried about the 30-378 @ 500 or 700 yds. Granted, the 30-30 if it were a bolt action loaded with NBT's or a higher BC bullet would be more effective to say 300yds at most 350.

That difference is thanks to velocity & BC. BC of course makes a considerable difference, but essentially just is an expression of" a bullet's ability to travel without losing velocity or having it's path altered by wind(this ability is proportiate to velocity also)"

I've seen the difference between my 308 & the much faster 30-378 in wind. Both rifles loaded with 180 grn NBT's, the 308 @ 2665FPS and the 30-378 @ 3450FPS: 308 4.5-5" group in 18-20MPH wind @ 300yds hitting 6" downwind of zero(hitting 6" off target) the 30-378 with same bullet still shot 2" groups about 2.5-3" off target. Both rifles shoot well, although I don't get many of the really nice one hole groups that are posted by more skilled marksmen here, I still usually shoot 0.7-1" groups @ 100yds and just under 3" @ 300yds. Just my thoughts, sorry if I get longwinded.

CC.

 

[Hegland]

OK – Newton’s creation of calculus is the driver for all of this. Let’s start with some definitions:

v = dx/dt
a = dv/dt

By introducing an object’s mass, Newton generated his laws of motion. Where we are concerned:

Momentum p = mv
Force F = dp/dt = m*dv/dt = ma

Work done by an object is the force it exerts through a distance, or F*dx. After some algebra rearrangement, energy is found by integrating this product and the result is

E = ½*m*v^2

This square of the velocity is significant. A 165gr bullet at 3000 fps has more energy than a 180gr bullet at 2800 fps, but the heavier bullet has more momentum because momentum is directly proportional to velocity, rather than its square.

This difference between energy and momentum is a contributor to all kinds of downrange performance, including retained energy and penetration. So, bullet correctly states that velocity is a critical component of a projectile’s energy. However, in terms of their effect on an animal, energy and momentum are sort of apples and oranges.