What's the advantage?

[Greg Nolan]

This question was sparked by a re-barrel to a Ruger Compact Magnum.
What is the advantage of a RCM over any typical Short Mag or even Standard Mag.
Case in point:
I have a Mossberg 4x4 in 338 Win. Mag. It weight 6.75 lbs. has a 24" fluted barrel with an additional 2" removable muzzle brake with thread protector. It has a laminated stock. I won't add more detail because it's not important to the question. It's light, has full capacity case and I doubt it's a half an inch longer if that.
I'm one of the folks that don't need much excuse to get a new gun for little of no reason. Especially if there's more power involved but What is the advantage? :?
This should stir a little controversy and I'll undoubtedly learn a lot.
I love this forum
GregView attachment Mossberg 4x4 001.JPGView attachment Mossberg 4x4 002.JPGView attachment Mossberg 4x4 003.JPGView attachment Mossberg 4x4 004.JPG

 

[DrMike]

The primary advantage of the RCM series is that it is new.

 

[JD338]

The primary advantage of the RCM series is that it is new.

+1

JD338

 

[Mountain Goat]

I haven't followed the RCM's much, but do own and handload for several WSM's and SAUM's. Your question is valid and is not a deliberate pot stir.

To answer your question quite generally, the short mags eliminate the belt and function in a short action without comprimising performance. Now, we'll leave it at that since those might not mean squat to some.

Here's a different way to analyze cartridges:

Eliminate all past merrits, who was first, which one won what competition and so forth. Just clean the slate and study them for what they are, not what they were or supposed to be.

Reverse most rifle consumer's thinking. What if the 270WSM was introduced in 1934 and the 270 WCF was placed on the market in 2001? What would people be saying? Same goes for the 300 Win Mag had it been a newcomer just a few years ago and the 300 SAUM had a 50 year head start. It really shows that some of what we hold dear to certain cartridges has nothing to do with the cardridge itself, but its surroundings. I'm not saying its wrong, but just making a point.

If the slate were wiped clean, and an onslaught of cartridges were suddenly introduced only for the popular to survive, which would make the cut without any history behind them? There would be some really wierd comments on the on-line forums:

Why did they put a belt on the xxx magnum? Don't they know it headspaces off the shoulder?
What's the advantage of a longer action?
Even the longer actions have short necks that allow the bullet to take up case capacity.
Why did they make a .277 cal?
And the list could go on for ever.

It just goes to show that when we decide to purchase/build a particular rifle, the choice in chambering is usually based on something other than the cartridge itself.

 

[Guest]

I think the only reason the RCM's exist is the lawsuit over the patent ownership of the WSM's, and the resultant settlement that requires a portion of each WSM sale to be paid in royalties to a former gun writer I won't name. I think the whole thing was crap, personally, and I can't be sure of the terms of the settlement, but it's my opinion that's why the RCM's exist. They don't do anything that other cartridges don't do (despite the wonderful, laws-of-physics-defying claims of Ruger and Hornady about both the RCM's and the 375Ruger). What they do is offer a different flavor of 338 or 300 with velocities situated between the 30-06 and the 300WinMag. Physics is physics, boys, and nobody gets around those laws.

Would I own one? Probably not right now. I'd like a 7mmWSM, but that's a different story, and in fact it is based on the increase in case capacity (and thus potential resultant velocity) over the 7mmRemMag. But the RCM's don't offer much, and I'm not a huge fan of Ruger rifles, so it's not a draw for me. If I want a 300 magnum, I'll reach for the 300Wby, as it does all these shorter mags do, and then some, and it's not punitive with recoil.

If you like the RCM's, or the SAUM's, or the WSM's, more power to you. I just bought my son a 270WSM (that he doesn't know about yet!) because I felt like it was a good deal on a left-hand rifle in a round that is downloadable right now for a 10yr old, and will be a great all around deer rifle later on. I'd just as soon have bought a 270Win, 25-06, 7mm-08, or 7mmRemMag in a good left-hand rifle at a good price. Ultimately they all work; you just have to see which ones ring the bell for you.

 

[DrMike]

dubyam,

The RCMs would have been produced whether Jamison (I'll name him) sued Winchester or not. Hornady and Ruger needed a shtick to be he forefront of gunwriters. The RCMs are good cartridges, but no better than what has gone before. The same was true of the WSMs and the SAUMs, which added nothing to the cartridges that had preceded them. It is always fun, however, to play with a new cartridge. Ultimately, the presence of these new cartridges will draw a few more shooters into the fraternity. Some of the cartridges will not survive (e.g. 300 SAUM or 7mm WSM). Others will enjoy a small, loyal following because they perform well; but rifles chambered in these cartridges will, for the most part, linger untouched on gun store shelves. A few, however, will become new standards for the industry.

 

[Guest]

Dr. Mike, I tend to agree that Ruger/Hornady would have done something to get on the cover of "Whatever gun rag monthly" but I still think the RCM is a response to the dropping of the WSM line by Ruger. They had to have something to compete, whether or not they capture a large portion of market or not. If they had kept the WSM, it would have been something else, like maybe the Ruger Extra Added Length Diabolical Ultra Metal Bazooka Cartridge (REALDUMB Cartridge) or some such. There haven't been that many truly interesting developments in cartridges over the last 10-20yrs, for me. There truly is nothing new under the sun, in some respects. Oddly, I see the 7mmWSM as the one in that group that offers something better than the standard mag it's slated against, and yet it's failing miserably and only now interesting to long range shooters (and most of that started in England!)

Oh, and I know the guy's name, I just didn't want him to get any press off of me.

 

[Greg Nolan]

I knew I'd learn something from all this.
I have to say that I can understand the better burn concept of short, fat and the slight advantage in short action ultra, ultra light rifles with more reach. The 270 WSM comes to mind because it's the only 270 mag other than Wby. There just seems to be so many duplicates and rifles that are full sized that get no benefit what so ever from the shorter cartrige.
I guess the mystique and new qualities are the spice of shooters lives and as said the caliber may have to do more with memories than anything else.
I wasn't aware of the Jameson lawsuit against Winchester. What was that all about?
Thanks again for your input
Greg

 

[DrMike]

REALDUMB Cartridge

I can't say I'm familiar with this cartridge, but I'd probably buy it just to try it. :lol:

Greg,

I'll send a PM concerning the Jamison suit.

 

[Elkman]

dubyam says
Dr. Mike, I tend to agree that Ruger/Hornady would have done something to get on the cover of "Whatever gun rag monthly" but I still think the RCM is a response to the dropping of the WSM line by Ruger. They had to have something to compete, whether or not they capture a large portion of market or not. If they had kept the WSM, it would have been something else, like maybe the Ruger Extra Added Length Diabolical Ultra Metal Bazooka Cartridge (REALDUMB Cartridge) or some such. There haven't been that many truly interesting developments in cartridges over the last 10-20yrs, for me.

I agree wholheartedly except that I believe it has been 30 or 40 years give or take a few !!!! DrMike is king he says it will bring more young shooters into the fold, I think that it purpose is to sell more rifles, pistols etc. "new and exciting"
:grin: :grin: :grin:

 

[Guest]

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea of more cartridges and more rifles (my wife just doesn't understand...) but my issue comes when people start venturing off into the unreality of how this or that new uber-cartridge can outperform some existing cartridge and give higher velocities with less recoil and use less powder. It just cannot happen. Physics is physics. And now we're seeing that the "Superformance" and "Leverevolution" powders are not blends. They are simply very specific burn rate powders that can be used to great advantage in certain chamberings. Interestingly, in reviewing data, I find that in many instances there are other, established powders that are able to produce equal or better velocity from the same cartridges. And it's funny how over the past 10-15yrs the load data for certain rounds has been grossly reduced, while many of the "newer" rounds are loaded right at the peaks and end up looking better in load manuals. For comparison, I have safe, published data that provides me with 2200+fps of velocity from 170gr bullets in my 20" barreled 30-30, out of load manuals from the mid-90's. And yet, most modern load manuals have reduced the charges significantly and show these bullets running a paltry 2000fps or so from a 20" carbine. My jug of Win748 is from the mid-90's, and I don't get pressure signs from these loads, and I get exactly what the manuals say I should get. Am I over pressure? I highly doubt it. But the new manuals show these loads as over. Strange but true...

 

[Greg Nolan]

dubyam is absolutely correct.
I get so frustrated when some gun writer compares apples to oranges to push the cartridge/gun of the company that just sent him/her on safari. Lighter bullets vs heavier bullets in shorter barrels to prove the superiority of the new wizbang magnum which isn't chonographed but factory ballistics are quoted. And they are exagerated.
The short mags and compact mags are light to medium bullet calibers. IE 325 WSM and the various 338s.
That being said I think for their purpose they are adequate and I have a few but they are not superior.
Greg

 

[FOTIS]

The primary advantage of the RCM series is that it there for the guy or gal that has to be different.

I mean how many 30-06's can a guy own? You gotta give the consumer more options so you can make more money. No? :mrgreen:

 

[nodak7mm]

RCM, RUM, SAUM, WSM, Etc... Ballistic Repackaging & marketing... In my humble opinion, where the real innovation and new advancements have in the past 20yrs is bullets and powder..

I personally find it humorous that when perusing the used gun racks, the new, superduper, ultra-killer, magically-flat 300 Whatever Midget/Massive Magnum chamberings far out numbers the legacy chamberings (308/30-06 based).

I know I dont enjoying shoot a 300 Whatever Midget/Massive Magnum in a 6.5# rifle with a 20" barrel.. Special purpose, yes. For me, not at this time. 8)

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

A .308 165gr bullet at 3000 FPS does the same thing on it's trip down range, as any other .308 165gr bullet at 3000 fps regardless of the shapre of the brass holding it before you pulled the trigger...

IMO the RCM's are about one thing. Marketing. As part of that marketing Ruger was showing off the fact that they had access to powders not avaliable to reloads. I think their strategy was to offer of series of rifles where handloaders could not match the factory loads, and try to recapture some of the ammo market. The backlash was more then they expected, and we got a couple of new powders out of it. I don't really care about the RCM's. The only new thing they brought to the table for us was RL-17!

 

[Guest]

A_S, I'm with you on the whole marketing thing. And for what it's worth, the whole "special powders unavailable to handloaders and velocities unachievable otherwise" is a total load of crap. I've seen a ton of evidence from a number of rifles that demonstrate what I've said for years - Scotty was right when he said, "Ya' canna' defy tha' laws a' physics, Captain!"

I've posted the link a number of times, but Lane Pearce wrote an excellent article on the 375Ruger:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition ... 75_080807/

If you parse his data correctly - and read the charts as "actual tested data compared in long barrels" in one chart, and "Ruger supplied 'published' data comparing a 20in. barrel" in the other chart, you'll see where reality and Ruger part ways. I think there's a lot of that going on. And beyond that, there are available powders that will outperform the "super special reloaders can't have it" powders in these rounds. Accurate MagPro is a perfect example. Take a look at the velocities achievable with MagPro for short mags, and bear in mind that my testing in my 270Wby bears out the MagPro numbers, as does the experience of a number of other loaders using them in various traditional rounds and short mags. There are others, RL-17 among them, that offer similar performance. Oh, and for the record, I have yet to meet anyone who's gotten published performance out of factory ammo in their rifles.

 

[BK]

I have purchased a Creedmoor, I will buy a .204, and I'll probably buy a .375, but that's where my desire for Ruger proprietary (if you want to call them that) cartridges end. No desire at all for an RCM. Which is odd, given my love for oddball rounds. (Then again, the SAUMs don't do much for me, either.)

 

[SJB358]

I would replace almost all of my other magnums with WSM based cartridges on the same caliber and never worry a bit. I think the WSM's without belts and ease of loading makes them excellent rifle cartridges. They hold plenty of powder up to 358 cal or so and can be built on some very nice rifles. Just my opinion, but I like them all quite alot. Scotty

 

[cloverleaf]

What Dubyman said +1. Business is business and with a few rare exceptions really new ground breaking stuff dosent come along all that often. AS one who loads and shoots one of the old obsolete cartridges (250-3000 Sav.) I would guess that this is true. The few factory loads out there for the 250 barely make 2800 fps. but its not hard to do better. But then what would happen if the lowly 250 had as high a muzzle velocity as a 243? HORRORS! Now there is no getting around the 243 wins the down range race but its hard to make that sell.
So there was a .25WSSM, ridiculous but it sold a few. CL

 

[SJB358]

I like the WSM's for more than one reason, but the one that really triggers a little emotion is cause they look alot like the old Newton Cartridges of the old days. Talk about being way ahead of their time. If it more financially reasonable I would have the 35 Newton and get rid of the 338WM. What a whopper and NO belt! Yeah, I am sucker for old stuff, but the WSM's really seem to follow along the same train of thought. Scotty