What's the advantage?

[257 Ackley]

Scotty -gotta agree with you on the non-belted cartridges. That is the only reason I have a 300 WSM and am going to build the 6.5 WSM in a couple weeks. I don't like belts on cartridges. Newton was ahead of his time.

 

[DrMike]

Truthfully, the short magnums won't do anything that other cartridges have already done. If a person has a 300 WM, there is really little justification to buy a 300 WSM. Ditto, if someone has a 7mm RM, they have no need to imagine that a 7mm WSM will supplant the older cartridge. Having said that, I have a number of duplications in the ballistic department. I simply find it fascinating to work up loads, and every new cartridge gives me an excuse to start all over. However, it is hard to imagine that there is any advantage to the newer cartridges. They are fun, however; and they do draw new people into the shooting sports.

 

[Guest]

As I've said, I don't have anything against the short mags in general, other than that they aren't "better" than the traditional belted mags.

And, Scotty, I'm with you on Newton. He was way ahead. I've wanted a 30Newton for years. Had to pass on a nice one a few years ago while I was out of work. May never get a chance like that again, but that's the way it goes. Passed on a few beautiful rifles I really wanted during that couple of years, and yet I'm still happy to be here every day, so it's not that big a deal.

There are other cases that fit in the "non-belted mag" class, too. The 8x68S is a notable one, developed by RWS in the 1930's, I believe. It sports a .512" case head, situated between the -06 case head and the belted mag case head. Interesting to note is that the 8x68S is slightly rebated, and the case body above the extractor groove is .524", which is larger than the belted mags. It sports only a 3.425" max COL, which is about .015" behind the 375H&H length magnums and just about .010" greater than -06 lengths.

@CL - you may already know this, but I didn't remember it, and found it interesting. Charles Newton not only developed a line of beltless magnum rounds, but he's also responsible for the 250-3000!

 

[SJB358]

I think if Charles Newton had of been alive today his ideas would have been taken much better, since we would have been able to chamber his cartridges in about any rifle the average shooter could afford.

Dubyam, your right, the WSM's don't do anything the standards do, but I do think they are a little more robust case and really designed for high performance from the get go. Case life seems to be really excellent for mine, with very little culls in alot of my shooting and I load near max for hunting pretty much all the time. Scotty

 

[JD338]

Newton was ahead of his time with his cartridge offerings. Just think if he had todays power offerings...

JD338

 

[SJB358]

You aren't kidding about that. Scotty

 

[cloverleaf]

Dubyman, you are correct. The 250-3000 Sav. was one of Newtons good rounds that the marketing boys got a hold of. When a fella by the name of P.O. Ackley got a hold of it it, he achieved the highest percentage velocity increase of all the Ackleys (or so Ive read). Newton always said it should be loaded with the 100 grain bullet. The marketing department pushed the 87 Gr. so they could sell a 3000fps rifle. From what I've read the 87 grain did not have a stellar reputation. Bullets made back then werent reallly good at those kind of velocities so the 250 eventually got a reputation as a wounder of game. But then there was the 22-250..... David Tubb set a 1000 yard record with a round based on a 250 case necked to 6mm..... but those kind of things dont sell rifles. CL

 

[SJB358]

I've only read this, but it has been in a few old time elk hunting books, but there were a few people packing the 250 Savage and shooting elk with the 87gr bullet. I guess if you put the bullet in the correct place it worked fine. Plus, the good thing about the little 250 is it doesn't really stress bullets and that helps it out! Scotty

 

[Greg Nolan]

I agree Newton was ahead of his time. He just didn't have the money and marketing ability the Weatherby had. I actually have(had)? a 270 Newton. I've only seen it mentioned in one old book. My dad got it in an estate auction back in the early 60s. My son has(had) it now. (LONG SAD STORY). I still have the dies for it. It was built on the Buffalo newton action and I shot my first elk with it. I saw a 35 Newton for sale on Gunbroker not too long ago.
The belt on most mags are useless unless you shoot a double rifle I agree.
I believe that's why I have fallen head over heals for the RUMs, they are the modern Newton.
Greg

 

[super-7]

Well I personlly am not a RCM fan, the caliber/rifle combo is aimed at a specific market. Most notably in Alaska, where a light short barrled carbine, with a potent pill is most welcome. Easy to pack and weild with enough horsepower to get the job done. Where I hunt 24 to 26" barrles are the norm and ranges can be on the long side. I think that Dave Emary of hornady is one of the brightest ballastitions of modern times, While physics are physics and you can't get something for nothing is true, if you look at there data they talk of a more complete burn, a smooth burning curve, and a more effiecent use of energy. The fact that they can come up with particular markets, and target them thru teaming up with St. Marks, Ruger, and Marlin, is actaully brillant marketing. While all others stick to the status quoa, they are actively persuing niche markets and capitalizing on them. While I love Nosler bullets and this forum you have to give the other guy's some credit. I know of several people that dusted off the ol 30-30 to try out the ftx or leverrevolution ammo, these rifles would still be safe queens if something new hadn't brought a little sparkle back to the levers. I know a few people that went back to shooting just a 170 gr softpoint as it shot better, but they fired a few rounds of ftx before going back.

 

[Guest]

Super 7, I agree with you up to a point on Hornady. I like their bullets, and they represent at least 40% of my bench stock.

But I diverge from you when we get to Hornady's published data with regard to their ammo and proprietary rounds. My experience, and that of numerous others, is that their claim don't hold up in the real world. I've shot a lot of LeverEvolution ammo and actually have some on hand for my 30-30 as a backup to my 150gr Speer handloads (which have better trajectory than the LE factory rounds, due to the LE ammo velocity only running 2100fps out of my 20" carbine). For reference, I can get 2300+ from my Speer load (published data). I've also seen similarly reduced results from various Hornady ammo including light mag and superformance in rifles owned by friends of mine. All the talk about burn efficiency, smooth and more complete burning curves, and the like is pure marketing conjecture as they are using it. The bottom line is, you will only get a certain velocity from a certain chamber pressure, and you have to burn a specific amount of powder in a specific size container to get that pressure. Take into consideration that in most all of these cases pressure specs are the same (65kpsi for most of the magnums) and you ant get more velocity from less powder, period. Compare case volume across these rounds, and you'll find velocity is directly aligned and proportional to this case volume number. Its resiliency simple. A brilliant ballistician still isn't immune to the laws of physics.

 

[SJB358]

Super 7, you are dead right! When I saw the Hodgdon Leverevolution powder and saw they are getting nearly 2400FPS with a 170gr bullet in the 30-30, I was very impressed and picked up a sweet little Winchester M94AE 30-30. Once I can get my hands on some 170gr PT's, I plan on making my load up. I think that would be a great deer rifle and man, it is handy. It got a Williams peep and that will be about it. Doesn't even need a sling. I love it.

Hornady is a great company, without a doubt, they are doing well to keep the older calibers alive and well. Scotty

 

[Guest]

Scotty, remember that those velocity data are from a 24" barrel, not the 20" generally found on 30-30's. I suspect you'll get something in line with the 2200fps I'm getting from Win748 under those same 170gr bullets. If you try it and get better than that, please post your results. I've not had as good luck with these "super" powders and cartridges as Hornady has!

 

[SJB358]

Scotty, remember that those velocity data are from a 24" barrel, not the 20" generally found on 30-30's. I suspect you'll get something in line with the 2200fps I'm getting from Win748 under those same 170gr bullets. If you try it and get better than that, please post your results. I've not had as good luck with these "super" powders and cartridges as Hornady has!

I see that Hodgdon says 2150 or so for W748 and 2330 or so with the LEVER powder, that is almost 200FPS more. I see that they are measuring it out of 24" barrels, but the increase should still stand with a 20" barrel. Either way, I would give it a try, just to see if it would work out. If not, I am still in fine shape with a 170gr PT at 2100! Scotty

 

[Guest]

I've got my doubts about the loads they're comparing to, Scotty. I'm getting (with published data, not some off the wall overload) over 2200fps out of a 20" carbine barrel from my Win94, using Win748 and Hornady 170gr bullets. I've also gotten 2330fps out of 150gr Speers in the same rifle, using Win748. I've tried Accurate 2520, Hodgdon BL-C(2), RL15, and IMR4895, with similar results, but the accuracy and velocity combo of the Win748 was the best, so that's what I'm shooting.

My point isn't "don't try these new powders" but rather "don't believe it until (or unless?) you see it." I've done extensive testing across multiple rifles and the facts as I've been able to observe them just don't line up. Primarily, the LE and Super ammo just don't deliver, in my experience. Further, the loads they're compared to are not max loads, and thus it's an unfair comparison. Add to that the fact that for whatever reason, it's not possible in 2011 to get 3000fps out of a 150gr bullet from a 30-06 anymore using traditional powders, when it was for nearly 100yrs prior, but now it's only possible with the new "super powders" and it all adds up to some sort of smelly mess.

Try the new powders. By all means. Report your findings, please. But don't be surprised if you find out there really is nothing new under the sun.

 

[SJB358]

No worries, I get what you are saying. I will also give W748 a good try also. It works pretty well in my 358, so it would be nice to have at least one powder that works in two cartridges!!!!! Scotty

 

[Greg Nolan]

On the leverevolution loads and powders. In my Marlin xlr 450 Marlin I get 2050 fps with the LE325 gr. bullets and 2100 fps with the 350 gr. Hdy fp. Advantage in power goes to the standard load. Accuracy and trajectory goes to the LE load. I bought some of the 325 LE bullets but havn't loaded them yet. I think I'll be able to beat the superformance load with traditional powder. I think!
Greg