wildcats

[Europe]

Before I knew Dewey, I had never even heard of some of the stuff he builds and talks about

I had never heard of the Grinch, Dasher, Cheetah, Texas Trophy Hunter or TTH and several others calibers that he builds and talks about. What happen to motherhood and apple pie or in your world, the H & H's, Winchester's, even the Swede is not good enough anymore and that one really kills me as I have always loved the old 6.5 Swede . Anyway since I am old and out of step with the times

1. who else is one sandwich short of a picnic, like my friend Dewey, and builds weird or wildcat caliber rifles ?

2. What are you going to build or have built that would make my eyes roll ?

3. Why ?

 

[.300winmag]

Well, increased performance is probably the biggest factor as to why people get wildcats. I've had a .338 Edge and I really liked the performance of it with 300gr SMK, I just couldn't justify the cost of it when I had my .300 Win. Mag. Which for all my practical applications would do everything I wanted at lower cost.

I will be doing a 6 Dasher when my 6BR barrel is shot out. Why? 100+ fps more velocity with about 2grs more powder and that cartridge has so many dang records at 600-1000 yards it's not even funny. Plus, fire form loads are also accurate and reloading components available.

 

[Dwh7271]

One sandwich short of a picnic, now that's funny.
I do them because they sometimes hit a niche I'm looking for and they're different. Many folks feel fire forming is a pain and more power to them, I like it. I get to see what the rifle might do, practice and get a feel for it and shoot more.

 

[longrangehunter]

First one was the 7mm Boo Boo, a improved 6.5/8x68s made by none other then Dave Tooley.

Then a 280 AI only because brass was easier to find, and form, and got even easier just buying it already formed from Kenny Jarrett. Now Nosler makes brass too even though I still use the FF brass I have on hand from Jarrett.

A 8.59 Galaxy which was before the short and fat craze even started, which gave 338 WM velocities in a 308 length case.

Then a 300 Jarrett, and why not have something accurate going 3450 fps! But I now have a 300 Norma Magnum in a TRG-42 simply because the 338LM was too much recoil for my neck shooting prone, and frankly it's more accurate and shoots just as far!

The 35 Whelen but I only bought that the moment Remington made it available and had three along the way until let those go too.

Why, they were cool, fast, and accurate, but mainly because of the person whom put them together, and the person making the ammo. Oh, I still have a 458 Lott but that's factory made too now. I suppose it was since I was building a rifle, why not make it better in some way?

 

[elkhunternm]

Have a .22/6mm that is my coyote rifle.

Read an article in either Rifle or Handloader by John Haviland (8-10 years ago) about the cartridge and had to have one.

 

[elkhunternm]

Also have a .450 Howell. Basically it duplicates the .458 Win Mag velocities,but at lower pressures. The case is a .404 Jeffery shortened to 2.500" and necked up to .458".



The rifle is a CZ 550 .458 Win Mag that had the chamber "cleaned up" by a .450 Howell reamer.

 

[Europe]

Good responses fellows

Dewey, my gal pals got tired of the sea and so we decided to tour the Scandinavian countries. We plan to tour the Sako plant when in Finland as my friend wants to look at the TRG M10, which I personally think is the ugliist looking rifle I have ever seen a picture of, maybe it will look better in real time. I am going to take a look at the 85 Exige. It looks pretty compact in pictures and would be easy to transport, but we will see. Of course if I get one it will be in the very boring 6.5 x 55.

I ask Fotis if I could pick up something for him, since he seems to like Sako.s, but he ignored me, so I am assuming that means no--- how about you Dewey, do you want me to pick up anything for you? Do you even like the Sako product?

Dewey, explain to me again the purpose of wanting a Grinch ? It looks like a bit of work to accomplish. And did the TTH catch on ? I dont see it talked about much.

300winmag, Ken, Cole, thanks for indulging an old lady and her curiosity, interesting information

 

[elkhunternm]

Europe,you're welcome.

Found the article that made me want a .22/6mm. It is in Handloader #216 April/May 2002.

 

[PJGunner]

The only wildcat I have is a .375 Chatfield-Taylor AKA .275 Taylor or 375/338 Win. Mag. Simple neck up of .338 Win. Mag. to .375, load and shoot. Frankly, I prefer making my brass from .458 Win. brass. Simple resist, trim to square off the necks and you're good to go. Does everything the .375 H&H does in a 30-06 length action. Very accurate too. Mine is built on a Ruger M77 Tang safety and with Ratline stock, old El Paso Weaver 4X scope with post and reticle the whole package weighs 7.5 Pounds, A gun you carry a lot and shoot little. :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Paul B.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Wild what? :lol: I've never heard of such a thing :mrgreen:

I have 24 rifles chambered in wildcat calibers (or what were wildcats when I made them and some have now become factory loaded calibers). I've probably built at least that many more over the years that I never kept.

I'm sure most of what I've built would make your eyes roll :lol: .

Why? Because I can. If you don't like that answer how about.....Why not? Seriously I build stuff to maximize capacity of a case, to use a specific case (like good Lapua or RWS brass), to make it fit in a certain length action easier and get max velocity, etc.

I've been building my own guns since 1992 and have chambered somewhere over 300 barrels just for me. So I've done a bit of tinkering in 25 years. I always have some kind of wildcat dream in my head. Not all of them are worth the cost or effort but many are IMO.

 

[truck driver]

Gee April I guess I represent the sandwich short of a picnic remark. Some of the wildcats I own are now factory chamberings. The only one I own that isn't is the 35 Whelen Ackely Improved.
I already had a 35 Whelen and wanted something a little more. The 35 Whelen /AI was like a quest and needed to be conquered. The more I shot it the more it impressed me. .338 Wm mag performance in a 30-06 design and length case which I didn't discover till I got a .338 Wm. Plus it took the boredom out of owning everyday rifle cartridges. :mrgreen:

 

[TC260]

Almost of my wildcatting has been for specialty pistols where there really aren't factory options for the application.

Beyond that, if I'm going to do a wildcat I try to be pragmatic about it. I see guys at the range sometimes spend big money and time doing some off the wall cartridge that's either completely useless or duplicates 50 other wildcats but uses some obscure parent case. There's more than enough "established" wildcats to suit my needs. Established meaning there's reamers, dies, data, etc readily available for it. They're basically factory rounds you can't buy ammo for and you can get into them for marginally more cost than factory

 

[Dwh7271]

Dewey, my gal pals got tired of the sea and so we decided to tour the Scandinavian countries. We plan to tour the Sako plant when in Finland as my friend wants to look at the TRG M10, which I personally think is the ugliist looking rifle I have ever seen a picture of, maybe it will look better in real time. I am going to take a look at the 85 Exige. It looks pretty compact in pictures and would be easy to transport, but we will see. Of course if I get one it will be in the very boring 6.5 x 55.

Ha. Thanks but no. I'm good. Kind of you to ask though.
The M10 is similar to the chassis system rifles out there. Not quite the same but the same concept it appears to me. Seems quite a few folks are using chassis systems for the Precision Rifle Series and other competition. I do have a guy I know that hunts one and does well.

I like Sakos and their cousins the Tikkas. (No offense intended to any!) :grin:
Great shooting rifles. I wouldn't mind building something on either action. I've just been kind of hung on Mausers and, gasp, gasp, Savages.
Touring the plant would be very cool.
Nothing boring about a 6.5x55. Classic cartridge. In fact I'm about to build a wildcat 6.5x55. :grin:
You mention the Grinch. Kind of interesting for an AR style build. The parent cartridge, the 6.5 Grendel has a lot going for it. PPC bolt head size (.440), similar to the PPC cartridge with the shoulder scooted out a hair. The guys shooting the Grinch appear to do well with it where it fits. There are some pretty terrific 6mm bullets out there for it. Plus it just sounds like fun.
FWIW, I'm a wildcat lightweight compared to Nathan. :lol:

 

[Blkram]

I built my 250 AI with just a rebarrel job on a LH Remington 700 CDL.

It too was a project inspired by a magazine article that I had read a few years before that. charlie Sisk had built a Walking Around rifle for a gunwriter (do not recall at the moment) and they had a lot of fun hunting antelope with it. The barrelI had installed was a Bevan King barrel; a local gunsmith who had actually known PO Ackley. I knew others with 257AI's, and while I was interested in a 25 caliber rifle for antelope and exotics hunting (still dreaming and planning for at the time), I wanted something a bit different. As Ackley's most improved performance cartridge, I thought it would fit the bill! I could also get properly headstamped brass from Quality Cartridge. And I can still shoot factory ammo in my rifle. All this just added to its appeal for me.

I do not think that I will build another wildcat, but I wanted at least one to play with.

 

[Europe]

Dewey, thank you for the info ---- I am not a trained detective, but I am assuming Nathan is Idahoctd.

Gil and Rodger, my husband was into the A.I. stuff and he had a chart the listed what each caliber actually gained from being A. I. d. He though the 35 and 280 were nice A.I candidates from memory. Gil does the 250 A.I. match or top the 25-06 and if it doesn't, I think this was always my argument with my husband, why not just get a 25-06. He used to say "anybody can do that" Ha ( my comment may not have been about the 250/25.06 specifically but it lets you understand our dialog )

Rodger, Idahoctd and Dewey, thanks for "playing along" with the joke part of my original post

Nathan, since Dewey has mentioned your expertise with wildcats, which A.I. caliber does give one the most gain ? ( all things being equal of course ) And, I know Cheyenne was going to buy a 244 H & H and I think she was working with Scotty on this, but not sure. Anyway, would that caliber be classified as a wildcat, as I dont think I have ever known anyone who has one. I think her desire for one was simply to add to her 375, 300 and 275 H & H collection. And, why doesn't anyone own one as again from memory it was a screamer, which is what some of you fellows are trying to obtain.

 

[Dwh7271]

but I am assuming Nathan is Idahoctd.

Whoops! Yes. :lol: Slipped!

 

[taylorce1]

I've talked with Dewey a few times, mainly on the Savage 10/110 action for builds. I've played with some wildcats, and have kind of drifted away from most. In most cases I've found that the only gains I see from a wildcat cartridge is simply on paper, as I'm not good enough in my shooting ability to see a difference on targets or game. Plus by sticking to more standard cartridges, I have more money to spend elsewhere in my hunting and shooting hobby.

Some of the wildcats I've played with are .280 GNR which is a 7mm cartridge on a .405 Win case. I might have enjoyed this cartridge more if it wasn't on a pistol barrel, the brake was horrendous on it and I couldn't handle it. The .375 JDJ on the .444 Marlin case and probably the best hunting wildcat I've ever used. Both of these were used on an Encore frame.

My best experience on Savage actions is the 6X47 Rem based off the .222 Remington Mag case, I built this to meet Colorado's hunting requirements for big game and it has worked very well from varmints to deer sized game. My next wildcat will be the 6X45 based off the .223 Remington case, I'm just waiting on the barrel to get here to install on another Savage rifle. The .223 AI was probably the worst decision I ever made, I didn't see a whole lot of gains and it doesn't equal the .22-250 and I quickly reinstalled the old barrel and sold the AI off.

While not technically a wildcat anymore I still shoot the .338-06 and have two custom rifles in it. It is a very handy cartridge and one that I'll probably always enjoy. I just need to use it more in hunting situations, and hopefully I can take some seriously big game with it in the future.

 

[truck driver]

April I'm always up for a good ribbing and do enjoy the banter. As for the most improved for velocity gains I think that is over rated and you have to look at the other advantages they provide. P.O. Ackely was a head of his time and there are a lot of his ideas incorporated in todays new super cartridges.
I may get booed off the forum for this but Weatherby is a direct Ackely design and only the radius shoulder makes it different so there was no copy write infringements. Yep Ed stole Po's design since he and PO were good friends and the 300Bee is a direct descendent of the 300 Ackely magnum.
Look out for the poo-poo :mrgreen:

 

[IdahoCTD]

I don't know that I'm a expert but I've built tons of them. The highest percentage of gain by the Ackley Improved treatment was suppose to be the 250AI. It had big gains from 100gr bullets, almost 25-06 speeds, but petered out with heavier bullets. The 300 H&H AI has pretty big gains as well because the 300 H&H case has so much taper to it. I've messed with numerous different versions of the 300 H&H Imp like a 300 Weatherby, 308 Baer, 30-358STA aka 300 Jarrett, and 30-8mm Mag. I still have 2 30-8mm Mag's and 1 308 Baer. We use to shoot a lot of rockchucks with these big magnum cases out to some pretty far distances.

There are big gains by improving other cases as well but they wouldn't be Ackley Improved versions. Ackley kept basically the same headspace on his improved cases so the factory ammo could be fired in the improved chambers without issues. I built a 30-378 Weatherby improved that I shortened the neck on and blew the case out to minimum taper with a 35 degree shoulder. With a 30" barrel it would shoot 150gr bullets over 4000fps and it would shoot 210gr bullets 3650fps.

I believe Holland and Holland standardized the 244 so it's technically not a wildcat even though I'm not sure anyone chambers rifles for it anymore. I built a 6WSM which is roughly the same capacity as a 244 H&H. It would shoot a 105gr bullet 3600fps. It was pretty accurate too.

I'm building another 30-338 Norma Imp shortly which is basically a 300 RUM but .350" shorter and fatter. It fits in magazines much easier because it's shorter although the fatter case does mean a different bolt is needed and not all actions can handle that. I'll probably do a 338 version also. One place had Lapua made 423 Dakota brass really cheap (.35 to .50 each depending on when you bought them) and I bought 1300+ of them. Now I use them for my wildcats on the 338 Norma Imp case because they are much tougher than the Norma made 300 or 338 Norma cases.

Nathan

 

[hunternyny]

Nathan,

I have found all I need in the Weatherby line up and have a 257, 300, and 340 and to date those three have been more than enough to handle everything in North America, but this thread educated me on a few things for sure. Rodger mentioned the Weatherby is a direct Ackley line which I did not know. A lot of A.I.'s are now made by rifle manufacturers so I am assuming that when that happens it is no longer a wildcat, much like the way you described the 244 Holland and Holland, but am not sure is why I am asking.

Also, when you sell, a rifle do you find it harder to sell the rifle than you might if it was a Weatherby, winchester, etc?

Dewey, from my association with a few I know they like the Mauser, Win 70, and Remington for builds, but is Savage a better option for a build than the Win 70 and Remington ? Also Dewey I can tell from your response that you knew April was serious, as I have not been a benefactor of her generosity, but I know a couple people who have. I know a few years ago someone here on this forum attempted to discredit Aleena when she suggested she would buy something for Scotty. Aleena is another very generous individual and a few on here and the LEL forum were benefactors of her generosity before she left the forum.

Last question's to the wildcat builders---on average--as I am sure it varies, do you find it cost's more to build than to buy something close to the caliber you want, or less. ? And how many times can you bore the barrel to make a different caliber ? Also if you go to Africa, NZ, Europe, would it be harder to get the ammo and rifle into the country ? And would it be impossible to "find" ammo, if the ammo you took with you was misplaced ?

thanks