WSMs--why the failure to turn the rifle world around

[CMBTshooter]

HTDuck, you're completely right, but the need for more power, flatter trajectories, a more efficient use of our components will always be the basis for a desire to make and use new cartridges.

 

[DrMike]

HTDuck, you're completely right, but the need for more power, flatter trajectories, a more efficient use of our components will always be the basis for a desire to make and use new cartridges.

Or just to make something "different." :grin:

 

[SJB358]

HTDuck, you're completely right, but the need for more power, flatter trajectories, a more efficient use of our components will always be the basis for a desire to make and use new cartridges.

Actually, we had the 30 Newton a few years before the H&H, with no belt....

Cartridge : .30 Newton
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
Useable Case Capaci: 80.815 grain H2O = 5.247 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 90 67.78 2713 2941 42402 10907 96.6 1.425
-09.0 91 68.53 2743 3008 43862 11024 97.0 1.403
-08.0 92 69.29 2774 3075 45372 11137 97.4 1.381
-07.0 93 70.04 2804 3143 46929 11245 97.8 1.360
-06.0 94 70.79 2834 3211 48531 11349 98.1 1.339
-05.0 95 71.54 2865 3280 50183 11447 98.5 1.319
-04.0 96 72.30 2895 3349 51890 11541 98.7 1.299
-03.0 97 73.05 2925 3419 53656 11629 99.0 1.279
-02.0 98 73.80 2955 3490 55483 11711 99.2 1.260 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 99 74.56 2985 3561 57372 11789 99.4 1.241 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 100 75.31 3015 3633 59327 11861 99.6 1.223 ! Near Maximum !
+01.0 101 76.06 3044 3705 61350 11926 99.7 1.204 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 102 76.82 3074 3777 63444 11987 99.8 1.186 ! Near Maximum !
+03.0 103 77.57 3104 3850 65612 12041 99.9 1.169 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 104 78.32 3133 3923 67857 12089 100.0 1.152 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 105 79.08 3162 3997 70182 12130 100.0 1.135 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 100 75.31 3148 3960 71731 11435 100.0 1.129 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 100 75.31 2825 3189 47363 11708 94.9 1.346


300WSM for comparison

Cartridge : .300 WSM (CIP)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
Useable Case Capaci: 72.069 grain H2O = 4.679 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.0 94 63.46 2705 2924 41322 10226 94.9 1.414
-09.0 96 64.16 2736 2993 42761 10348 95.4 1.392
-08.0 97 64.87 2768 3063 44255 10466 95.9 1.370
-07.0 98 65.57 2800 3134 45803 10581 96.3 1.348
-06.0 99 66.28 2832 3205 47416 10691 96.8 1.327
-05.0 100 66.98 2864 3278 49087 10797 97.2 1.306
-04.0 101 67.69 2895 3351 50825 10898 97.6 1.286
-03.0 102 68.39 2927 3425 52628 10995 97.9 1.265
-02.0 103 69.10 2959 3499 54505 11086 98.2 1.246 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 104 69.80 2991 3575 56456 11173 98.5 1.226 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 105 70.51 3022 3651 58485 11255 98.8 1.207 ! Near Maximum !
+01.0 106 71.22 3054 3728 60595 11331 99.0 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 107 71.92 3086 3805 62792 11403 99.3 1.170 ! Near Maximum !
+03.0 108 72.63 3117 3883 65069 11468 99.5 1.152 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 109 73.33 3149 3962 67429 11528 99.6 1.134 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 110 74.04 3180 4042 69880 11582 99.7 1.116 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 105 70.51 3169 4015 71552 10910 100.0 1.113 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 105 70.51 2818 3175 46682 10946 92.7 1.330


So yeah, when Bill said there hasn't been anything new invented in 50+ years, I tend to think he is right.

 

[Thankful Otter]

I like the idea of the short mags. I even bought my son one. I think there are three reasons they're becoming scarcer. First, there's a premium on the rifles and ammo due to the lawsuit. I suspect Ruger's RCM line was borne of a desire to avoid the added fee. There's just not much margin in rifles and every little bit counts. Second, I think the "new" is off, and many people who would want one, have one. In some cases, they have several. That's part of the process with every new cartridge, though. The last issue is probably the most relevant. When the short mags were introduced - especially the WSMs, but to a degree the SAUMs as well - they were touted as faster than their standard length counterparts with all but the heaviest bullets. That's proved not to be the case, by and large. What people have rediscovered is the truth that there is no free lunch. There is no magic elixir of case shape that makes one round faster than another while using significantly less powder, but the same bullet. What's happened is, the laws of physics have kicked back in, after all the gunwriter euphoria, and people now realize that, at equal pressures (65kpsi and under) the WSMs run about as fast as one would expect based on case capacity. So, too, does the 375Ruger and it's offspring. (The 375 has about 5% more case capacity than the 375H&H, and, as if by magic, is about 4% faster than the H&H...) So all of a sudden, the guys who thought they were buying something between a 300WinMag and a 300Wby have discovered they're closer to the 30-06 than the 'bee, and the word is getting around. I've noticed the optimistic load data for these coming back to earth a bit, too, in some instances. Not to the level that Speer and Hornady have neutered the Weatherby data (the 270Wby maxing out with 2900fps for a 150gr bullet? Seriously? That's a 270Win, not Wby!) but it is down some.

Don't get me wrong. I like these rounds. I like a lot of rounds. Even the WSSMs are gaining a following in the AR platform, and they're spectacularly suited for it from what I'm learning. I even like the 375Ruger, as it offers guys with standard length actions an option for bigger, faster rounds than they had before. But the reason the hype is dying down is age (the novelty is wearing off) and those pesky laws of physics.

Well said dubyam, and true.

Scotty has also brought the point home with the info about the Newton. And of all people I possibly more than anyone would agree with HTduck. 30-06 and 375, works for me and has worked for me.

But It has nothing to do with need. It is mans way to always look for a better or at least new "mouse trap" to sell the public. And we buy it for whatever reasons, but that reason is not always because we need it.

Scotty, after reading the info you supplied about the 7 WSU as well as the entire conversation about it, my husband is looking strongly at getting a BLR in the 7 WSU. He also does not NEED it.

 

[DrMike]

[M]y husband is looking strongly at getting a BLR in the 7 WSU. He also does not NEED it.

But he will not regret having it. :grin:

 

[Oldtrader3]

Minor point, I could barely get 69 grains of IMR 4350 into a .300 WSM with a 165 Partition. Getting 71 grains of RL22 into that case with a 180 grain Partition or especially an AccuBond may be an issue?

 

[SJB358]

Minor point, I could barely get 69 grains of IMR 4350 into a .300 WSM with a 165 Partition. Getting 71 grains of RL22 into that case with a 180 grain Partition or especially an AccuBond may be an issue?

Agreed Charlie, RL22 is not the powder for the 300WSM in my book, RL19 is the one, it fills the case nicely and gets as much or more speed with less powder.. I just did it for comparison between two similar cartridges with the same powder. I think it would have ran the same with RL19 or probably IMR4350.

[M]y husband is looking strongly at getting a BLR in the 7 WSU. He also does not NEED it.

But he will not regret having it. :grin:

[/quote]Well said dubyam, and true.

Scotty has also brought the point home with the info about the Newton. And of all people I possibly more than anyone would agree with HTduck. 30-06 and 375, works for me and has worked for me.

But It has nothing to do with need. It is mans way to always look for a better or at least new "mouse trap" to sell the public. And we buy it for whatever reasons, but that reason is not always because we need it.

Scotty, after reading the info you supplied about the 7 WSU as well as the entire conversation about it, my husband is looking strongly at getting a BLR in the 7 WSU. He also does not NEED it[/quote]

Not sure how long the BLR magazine is, but with bullets like the 140 A-Frame and PT, I can't see the 7WSM not being an awesome rifle in a BLR.

 

[Anonymous]

Speaking of loading the WSMs, my results with RL17 have been excellent- I believe it is the "go to" powder in the short mags.

Speaking of the '06 and the .375- they are among my favorite cartridges, but I seldom use them anymore. I'm sure I could have happily still been shooting one of my first '06s but where is the fun in that?

I'd be a lot of dollars ahead....and poorer for it.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I used IMR 4350 with good results in the .300 WSM. I was able to match, load for load against the .300 H&H. They have very close capacity to one another.

 

[PJGunner]

I remember when the WSMs first came out, my ex-son in law bought a Winchester M70 FWT in .300 WSM. We took it to the range and it was only fair with factory ammo. A friend gve him a load with the 165 gr. Nosler Ballistic tip and IMR 4831. My ex-sol did not reload so I got stuck with the job. He left the tifle, dies and brass plus bullets and powder. hat load worked OK but I tried to convince him that it probably was not an elk load. I did some very limited work with the 180 gr. Sierra but the rifle didn't like it or the 180 gr. Nosler Partition. I wasn't given much more time to work with the gun so we just left it with the 165 gr. load. The one good thing that came out of all of this is when he came down from home (he lives about 70 miles from me) I sat him down, showed him how to reload and made him load up the final batch with me watching him. Guess it took because he bought a complete loading kit with goodies and now does it himself. 8)
I have several very accuate .300 Win. mag.s so just can't see a need to buy a WSM.
Paul B.

 

[Oldtrader3]

My .300 WSM with a Zeiss 3-9x36 Diavari C went to my son. I have owned a couple of .300 H&H's, (1) .308 Norma Mag for several years and the .300 WSM for about a year or so. I am not a .30 mag type of guy. I really liked the .300 H&H for provenence as part of my Wincester collection but I am more of a .338 Mag or .340 Mag guy. I want the elk to feel the power of that 225 grain bullet when I pull the trigger! My son does not load, so I loaded up about 100 rounds of 165 and 180 Partitions to get him started. He still has some left seven years later. He is more of a bow hunter now then rifle.

 

[SJB358]

Same here Charlie. Never been a huge lover of 300 mags either. While they are probably the most beneficial pick of most hunting scenarios, I tend to look at the sub 30's and the over 30's most of the time. However, a 300 like the WSM or H&H would probably have been a smart purchase and left all by itself. I hunted with a 300 Win Mag for quite awhile, loved it alot, but it got boring.

The 300WSM is kinda new, so it is fun to monkey with it a little.

 

[Thankful Otter]

Scotty

pistol grip
22 inch barrel ( I had said 24, which is the length of the 7 Rem)

Thank you for your help Scotty, he is arranging to get it as we speak.

The negative is that we will have to push my 275 back aways as we cant afford both right now

 

[SJB358]

Scotty

pistol grip
22 inch barrel ( I had said 24, which is the length of the 7 Rem)

Thank you for your help Scotty, he is arranging to get it as we speak.

The negative is that we will have to push my 275 back aways as we cant afford both right now

Congrats on the Browning, but darn, I hope I didn't gip you out of the 275 for too long Cheyenne! Who knows, you might just end up wanting your own 7mm WSM in a cute little Featherweight! That'll show him! :grin:

 

[SJB358]

Scotty

pistol grip
22 inch barrel ( I had said 24, which is the length of the 7 Rem)

Thank you for your help Scotty, he is arranging to get it as we speak.

The negative is that we will have to push my 275 back aways as we cant afford both right now

Tell him to stock up on some RL22/IMR7828 SSC, or Magpro.. He will be happy he did!