257 Roberts AI Finally!

[wildcatter]

It's been nearly 30 years since I built me first 257 AI, and a week ago I took possession of my second. I have built 2 6mm Rem. AI in that time, which is on the same case, and my favorite in these calibers. Both about as efficient as you can get for the caliber. But I found the 257 AI was just dang near perfect. So the plan was, since Fred agreed to build the stock, I'd order a 25 cal. 1-10 twist 28" HV barrel. meantime I would find a donor action, and acquire the components and dies cutters, and mandrels to make this all happen while waiting on the barrel and stock to happen.

So I started looking for another Axis action, my 3rd now. I thought about the stainless steel I already had, but while waiting I found this. A brand new Youth model in a Muddy Girl camo stock, in 223? it was under 200 dollars, Brand New,, because it did not have a bolt?? But that was no problem for Fred, and I got a needed short mag for the 223 case to use in my custom Axis repeater that Fred built in 17 Mach IV. Sold the scope for 50 bucks, got a new magazine, and for less that 250 investment had the action and bolt.


So after building the stock, that I told Fred if we didn't like it, because we had no idea what a Walnut laminate would look like with alternating grain? He started on the action, first bushing the bolt head for the smaller firing pin, and tuning the ignition system,,then blueprinting the action and timing everything. While attained all the dies, neck turning mandrels, Bullets, brass, and scope, then got everything sized turned and ready.


As you see I started this project with the idea I would use 30/06 Lapua brass, as it was all I could find from Lapua that would work. But shortly after I sized a couple, and cut and trimmed them, I did some more searching. and finally in Canada I found the bronze gold! Lapua 8x57 Mauser Brass, in stock, but only 100 rounds. Whis was fine with me, as after building the last 2 6mm Rem AI rifles. I knew how good this brass is. It is the most consistent and the strongest cases I've found in this series of cartridges. I can stand em extremely hard, and the heads don't grow, and the primer pockets stay tight. But sizing down means neck turning even for a no turn reamer. I had some 7x57 AI and 257 AI made on R_P brass I sized down for those pictures.

I finally got the barrel before the first of the year, and last week fred walked into the clubhouse my gun case in hand on range maintenance day last week. I had told him when I dropped it of I wanted the barrel finished at 26" with 6-1/4" flutes starting 2.5" from the muzzle and extending to 4" in front of the receiver. As I walked over and opened the case, I was quite happy. I had finished the stock after sanding, with several coats of boiled Linseed Oil, then 4 coats, sanding between each with Deft Satin Urethane. So I knew how good the stock looked, but the Fluted then polished Brux barrel, really made it pop!! At least I felt it was well worth this wait to me! I guess it just don't take much to make me happy?

 

[cloverleaf]

Well- that is one of the best looking Axis reclamation's I have seen! Wish that (Joel) 257 Ackley was still knocking around the board. You guys would have some stuff to talk about! Congrats for finishing out a project well! What twist rate did you go with? Wondering if any one has tried the new Hornady 138's in .25 cal? CL

 

[JD338]

Beautiful rifle. I've always liked/wanted a 257 AI.
Looking forward to seeing your range results.

JD338

 

[Blkram]

Nice! Hope you enjoy it!

I have had a 257 Roberts but never one that has been Ackley'd. Still looking for a BLR in 257 Roberts.
I shot a friend's 257AI once out at the range and liked shooting it. Recoil was mild, accuracy was good, but it did bark!

When I went with a quarter bore in the AI version (my only wildcat to date), I went with the 250AI as I had read a couple of articles on rifles so chambered, including one on a rifle built by Charlie Sisk. That article about that Walking Rifle, or was it Walking Around Rifle???...helped me decide on that carthridge for a build.
I have had fun shooting the 250AI, even with factory Winchester 250 Savage 100 gr PP ammo to fire form cases. It will shoot those into sub-MOA groups at 100 yards. My wife even likes shooting it so much, she bought herself a Lipsey's Edition Ruger No.1 in 250 Savage.
I hope to finally develop a good load for it with the 110 gr AB. Or 115 gr BT.
I did send away a fireformed case to Quality Cartridge and got 200 rounds of properly headstamped brass for it.
Would be fun to take to pronghorn hunting, to Africa for springbok and some of the other similar sized antelope species, or Argentina for axis deer, blackbuck, fallow buck and mouflon.

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Good example of when a plan comes together. Very nice.

 

[wildcatter]

Nice! Hope you enjoy it!

I have had a 257 Roberts but never one that has been Ackley'd. Still looking for a BLR in 257 Roberts.
I shot a friend's 257AI once out at the range and liked shooting it. Recoil was mild, accuracy was good, but it did bark!

When I went with a quarter bore in the AI version (my only wildcat to date), I went with the 250AI as I had read a couple of articles on rifles so chambered, including one on a rifle built by Charlie Sisk. That article about that Walking Rifle, or was it Walking Around Rifle???...helped me decide on that carthridge for a build.
I have had fun shooting the 250AI, even with factory Winchester 250 Savage 100 gr PP ammo to fire form cases. It will shoot those into sub-MOA groups at 100 yards. My wife even likes shooting it so much, she bought herself a Lipsey's Edition Ruger No.1 in 250 Savage.
I hope to finally develop a good load for it with the 110 gr AB. Or 115 gr BT.
I did send away a fireformed case to Quality Cartridge and got 200 rounds of properly headstamped brass for it.
Would be fun to take to pronghorn hunting, to Africa for springbok and some of the other similar sized antelope species, or Argentina for axis deer, blackbuck, fallow buck and mouflon.

Hope you get those ticked off your bucket list! The AI version of the 250 is like the &x57 and 257, for much the same reason.

I new how good this Roberts cartridge was the first time I built one 30 year ago, even before I made it an Ackley. I also had 223, 22-250, 7x57, 30-06, and soon will add the 338-06 to that list. I found the 7x57 and the Roberts were truly Improved when I loaded for them over available ammo, the rest was just a case of better case life about all I seen for a practical improvement. But most of them were already loaded to normal modern pressure.

The reason I think so many think that the 7x57 Mauser, and 257 Roberts were so great of an improvement was, they never owned the factory cartridge and reloaded it to safe modern pressures in the modern actions that are available today in those calibers. I never owned the 250 Savage opting for even more performance from the Roberts in that caliber, but it is the same. All the manuals and ammo available for it shows very anemic loads, nowhere near modern pressures. I understand why this is, with so many of these rifles first offered as wildcats on weaker military actions, and introduced on weaker actions than todays modern bolt actions can be loaded to.

If some just loaded these parent cases to modern pressure, we may well still have had them as options for todays offerings. These are Ideal case capacity in these calibers, leaving very little gain to the overbore magnums and larger cases in those calibers. The 7x57 is truly a short magnum in the ackley when loaded to the same pressures. Today the magnums get a little more gain with barrels over 24" and much slower powders that are available today, like Retumbo, and others.

But with the powders we had a decade or so ago like 4350, 760, 4831, 7828, rl 19, and the likes, the old Mauser brass was capable of max pressures with those powders using medium to heavy bullets, in 22 and 24 inch barrels. Whereas at the same pressure those magnum cases needed more of those available slower powders to reach the same pressures which they could hold, and give only marginally better velocities. Some cartridges like the proprietary Weatherby's with vastly more powder capacity really only got there larger gains by factory induced looooong freebores, jumping bullets over .100" with their factory ammo, to meet their claims, and still keep pressure safe. This really means low % gains with high % less barrel life.

All those larger cartridges while creating much more erosion than these very capable cartridges at the same pressures, and performance was very close for such little gain for me to justify the baggage they brought with them. Then they still were much more work tuning loads, and not as capable with more components, to attain the accuracy that came so easy with these more efficient rounds. In fact many times not capable of matching them with any loads as accurate. If they could, many times they need much heavier platforms to deliver it in the field. We see this even on the 600 and 1000 yard Benchrest guns and the calibers they use.

I am building a new first for my Ackley ventures as I speak. I am accumulating and have most in my possession with the stock and action on the way to build a new 338-06 AI. I already expect little gain in the improved cartridge, but welcome the straighter case and sharper shoulder for both case life, and I think that sharper shoulder offers better headspacing properties. But since this rifle barrel is only available from Brux in a #4 sporter, and they will not do a 330 bore any lighter, I have ordered a 257 in a 1-9 twist in the same heavier #4 contour for the 110 to 120 premium hunting bullets for lighter work, making this new lightweight hunting rifle a switch barrel for everything from Antelope to big and dangerous game with the 338-06 ai using the 225 grain AB. or 250 partitions.

But in the time I have left in this life, this should do more than I will ever take advantage of. I also will never bow to the idea their is any practical advantage to those magnum cases. The gains they offer, are negated to me with less accuracy and everything else they give up in field conditions, in the same weight rifles. I also know today with the rangefinders we have today, the flatter trajectory many claim is irrelevant when we know exactly where to aim, with rifles capable of delivering better accuracy at longer ranges, unless you want to lug around heavy varmint weight big game rifles which restrict your mobility, especially at my age!! But that pertains to all.

 

[grry10]

That is truly a beautiful rifle.

I've been shooting a Remington model 722 that was rechambered to 257 Ackley for about 10 year for whitetail deer, what a pleasure. Nosler 120 grain PTs paired with Reloader 19 has provided good results. Note that Speer 120 grain also shoot well.

When it was still a 257 Roberts I did use it with 100 grain NBTs to harvest a 125 class buck at 188 yards in an open marsh with tall grass. He was double lunged but left no blood trail and traveled 80 to 100 yards beyond the edge of the marsh. The jacket of the bullet was against the far side. Because this is my land and I'm very knowledgeable of the paths that deer take was the only reason that I was able to recover it. After that I moved to the NPT but was unable to get them to shoot well out of my 722. Making it a Ackley increased the velocity enough to allow the 120 to shoot well. The 100 NBT would produce one ragged hole groups. The 120 won't match that but they do shoot .75 inch groups or less.

 

[cloverleaf]

Nice! Hope you enjoy it!

I have had a 257 Roberts but never one that has been Ackley'd. Still looking for a BLR in 257 Roberts.
I shot a friend's 257AI once out at the range and liked shooting it. Recoil was mild, accuracy was good, but it did bark!

When I went with a quarter bore in the AI version (my only wildcat to date), I went with the 250AI as I had read a couple of articles on rifles so chambered, including one on a rifle built by Charlie Sisk. That article about that Walking Rifle, or was it Walking Around Rifle???...helped me decide on that carthridge for a build.
I have had fun shooting the 250AI, even with factory Winchester 250 Savage 100 gr PP ammo to fire form cases. It will shoot those into sub-MOA groups at 100 yards. My wife even likes shooting it so much, she bought herself a Lipsey's Edition Ruger No.1 in 250 Savage.
I hope to finally develop a good load for it with the 110 gr AB. Or 115 gr BT.
I did send away a fireformed case to Quality Cartridge and got 200 rounds of properly headstamped brass for it.
Would be fun to take to pronghorn hunting, to Africa for springbok and some of the other similar sized antelope species, or Argentina for axis deer, blackbuck, fallow buck and mouflon.

Yup- all of the above. Especially the part about Antelope in Africa. Wouldnt that be a blast. A 250 AI was thought by Ackley to be a very efficient Cartridge. Sorry, not to highjack your thread. A257 Bob Ackley is as well, and just more of a good thing! CL

 

[Blkram]

I forgot to mention that the 250AI is virtually identical to the 25 Creedmoor...

And I see that Nosler is now producing brass for it!
Might have to get the barrel on my rifle restamped!
(Should they decide to load ammo with the 110 gr AB and/or 115 gr BT so I don't have to use just handloads in my rifle!)

 

[salmonchaser]

I’m thinking about rebarreling one of my #1s to a 257 AI. I’d like to do it with a 1/2 round 1/2 Octagonal.

 

[DrMike]

I’m thinking about rebarreling one of my #1s to a 257 AI. I’d like to do it with a 1/2 round 1/2 Octagonal.

That'd be very handsome and quite a unique firearm.

 

[wildcatter]

Finally, a little windy, but above freezing got me out for a second time in midday high 30's. I'm still waiting on my sizing bushings for the 287" loaded diameter necks. Right now I'm using the Forester FL that sizes the necks with no inside colet, to 279". So then I have to run them thru my Carbide inside NK sizing collet I use before turning the necks with my K&M neck turner. This leaves them with '0013 nk tension. I am pretty sure I need more like .0025" to .0035" tension for the volume and slower powders I'm using.

But I had to give the H4350 a try with the Bibs 88 grn HPBT. This is the powder and bullet I'm hoping to run with. Before I loaded these, I went out and shot one each loaded from 1 grain under max, (from the old Sierra 2 binder loading manual) to 1 grain over max. It showed 44.1 grains as max for an 87 grain bullet. I loaded 44.5 grain, and 45.0, with the 45.0 load only partially loaded? I forgot to prime them, This getting old chit is getting old!

But I ran with what I had, 3 rounds of the 44.5 grain load. I also had 2 rounds to get me zero'd, while fouling the barrel, and after making a minor 3/8" left adjustment the first shot. I didn't notice a poi shift with the first shot, then with the 2nd shot using the first for a new poa from the 53.0 grain loads, they were nearly touching. So I left it set 10 minutes, as I wanted to see where a cold barrel shot and 3 shot group would hit in a hunting situation.

Well there you have it, my very first attempt with the H4350, and the 88 grain Bib HPBT, I think I can make this work!


I was very happy! I also only had a 3 shot extreme spread of 25.4 fps, something I think neck tension will lower, and I'm hoping tighten the group as well. But what shocked me was the 3747 fps average from the 3 shots! I don't know what changes it will take to tune this beginning load, seating depth? Neck Tension? more or less powder? maybe a change from the Feral 215M primer? But I have to believe I didn't hit the magical optimum load I can expect from this combination. But If I was that lucky, and this is it's daily best load, I'll live with it!

I wish I would have had the cases primed I loaded with the 55.0 grain load. I really expect it to shoot a little better. I am not seeing any sign of to much pressure, and I know this powder likes pressure in other cartridges I use it in. The 243 and the 6x47 Lapua both shoot good with less than max, but they start showing I'm getting close to max for pressure, they really drill tiny groups.

I new from my past 257 AI, a 721 with a 27.5" Pence barrel, it was going to give me better than 3600 fps with this bullet. But I didn't think it would be getting near 3800 fps. But after this first attempt, I think 3800 is easily available. I just don't know how well that will shoot, and accuracy is paramount as long as I'm north of 3600 fps. I also shot my 223 and clocked it as well, and it turned in its velocity right where it should be, so the chronograph is not in question, it's been tested many times even with my gunsmiths 3 screen Ohler.

Next decent day we will be on it. I will have my new neck bushings for my wilson neck die, and I can then do my shoulder bumping with the Redding Body die. This will undoubtably make better reloads, as well as not overwork this fine 8X57 Lapua brass, I can't express how good this brass is. Both extremely consistent case to case, but the strongest brass I've used from Lapua!

Till my next range session, and just getting started, I could not be happier!

 

[salmonchaser]

Finally, a little windy, but above freezing got me out for a second time in midday high 30's. I'm still waiting on my sizing bushings for the 287" loaded diameter necks. Right now I'm using the Forester FL that sizes the necks with no inside colet, to 279". So then I have to run them thru my Carbide inside NK sizing collet I use before turning the necks with my K&M neck turner. This leaves them with '0013 nk tension. I am pretty sure I need more like .0025" to .0035" tension for the volume and slower powders I'm using.

But I had to give the H4350 a try with the Bibs 88 grn HPBT. This is the powder and bullet I'm hoping to run with. Before I loaded these, I went out and shot one each loaded from 1 grain under max, (from the old Sierra 2 binder loading manual) to 1 grain over max. It showed 44.1 grains as max for an 87 grain bullet. I loaded 44.5 grain, and 45.0, with the 45.0 load only partially loaded? I forgot to prime them, This getting old chit is getting old!

But I ran with what I had, 3 rounds of the 44.5 grain load. I also had 2 rounds to get me zero'd, while fouling the barrel, and after making a minor 3/8" left adjustment the first shot. I didn't notice a poi shift with the first shot, then with the 2nd shot using the first for a new poa from the 53.0 grain loads, they were nearly touching. So I left it set 10 minutes, as I wanted to see where a cold barrel shot and 3 shot group would hit in a hunting situation.

Well there you have it, my very first attempt with the H4350, and the 88 grain Bib HPBT, I think I can make this work!
View attachment 25119

I was very happy! I also only had a 3 shot extreme spread of 25.4 fps, something I think neck tension will lower, and I'm hoping tighten the group as well. But what shocked me was the 3747 fps average from the 3 shots! I don't know what changes it will take to tune this beginning load, seating depth? Neck Tension? more or less powder? maybe a change from the Feral 215M primer? But I have to believe I didn't hit the magical optimum load I can expect from this combination. But If I was that lucky, and this is it's daily best load, I'll live with it!

I wish I would have had the cases primed I loaded with the 55.0 grain load. I really expect it to shoot a little better. I am not seeing any sign of to much pressure, and I know this powder likes pressure in other cartridges I use it in. The 243 and the 6x47 Lapua both shoot good with less than max, but they start showing I'm getting close to max for pressure, they really drill tiny groups.

I new from my past 257 AI, a 721 with a 27.5" Pence barrel, it was going to give me better than 3600 fps with this bullet. But I didn't think it would be getting near 3800 fps. But after this first attempt, I think 3800 is easily available. I just don't know how well that will shoot, and accuracy is paramount as long as I'm north of 3600 fps. I also shot my 223 and clocked it as well, and it turned in its velocity right where it should be, so the chronograph is not in question, it's been tested many times even with my gunsmiths 3 screen Ohler.

Next decent day we will be on it. I will have my new neck bushings for my wilson neck die, and I can then do my shoulder bumping with the Redding Body die. This will undoubtably make better reloads, as well as not overwork this fine 8X57 Lapua brass, I can't express how good this brass is. Both extremely consistent case to case, but the strongest brass I've used from Lapua!

Till my next range session, and just getting started, I could not be happier!

Getting old ain’t for sissy’s

 

[JD338]

Getting old ain’t for sissy’s

Exactly!

JD338

 

[truck driver]

Exactly!

JD338

Amen Brother, every day is something different and a new challenge.

 

[wildcatter]

Getting old ain’t for sissy’s

You got that right, but it's the best thing everyone's got to look forward to! If they don't like this, they're going to hate the alternative,,,

 

[Blkram]

I’m thinking about rebarreling one of my #1s to a 257 AI. I’d like to do it with a 1/2 round 1/2 Octagonal.

Would make a handsome rifle!

 

[cloverleaf]

Wildcatter- that there is "reloading on the next level". Good shooting! Specially when you're shivering! Been there.... That stock is still impressive. Have had an idea about trying somthing like that idea in Maple for years. Too chicken to try it ma'self. CL

 

[wildcatter]

Wildcatter- that there is "reloading on the next level". Good shooting! Specially when you're shivering! Been there.... That stock is still impressive. Have had an idea about trying somthing like that idea in Maple for years. Too chicken to try it ma'self. CL

not really shivering. It wasn't ideal but things were melting, and starting to now make mud, don't know which I hate more, the frozen tundra, or the slightly warmer playing in the mud?

But Thanks I took my time and was pretty solid, plus with this trigger Fred made for this gun, it makes shooting from the bench and testing pretty easy! I don't plan on shooting many 5 shot groups with this rifle, and my testing will be one shot on a fouler target after cleaning between every three shot group. I'm also limiting it one shot ever minute, with 15 minutes minimum between groups, not counting the time I spend cleaning. Cold shots and mainly first shots are my main concern.

Once I settle on a load, I'll sight in off the tripod I'm making with a rest top on it using a protector top. It's only 12lbs 12oz finished with scope, but I don't plan on carrying it. I built it for anything over 400 yards, and in spots I have permission for over that out to a little over 850 yards.

I just setup everything in my GEO Ballistic app, I'm still not believing these results, but it is telling me it is better than I had hoped for! that .420 coef, from that 88 grn Bibs bullet is very impressive at 3700 fps. My last 257 AI was built over 30 years ago. A 27'5" Pence 1-10 HV barrel on a 722 Remington. With a 85 grain Nosler BT it only gave me 3650 fps, and was showing more pressure than this load is. I think back then I was using the IMR4350, instead of H4350. But I never wrote that down, just how many grains of 4350?

I wanted another stock made like this for a sporter, but Fred refused to ever make another! He said If I can find the blank he'll contour and inlett it, but now doing another from scratch. Said he has to many way to make more money spending a lot less time doing it. If you can build one, do it, if you don't like it, paint it! I had an old McMillan BR stock I acquired cheap on destroyed Panda just to get the Pence 17 caliber barrel it was in. I decided after the guy refused just to sell the barrel, to build a 222 Remington in memory of my mentor Fred Sinclair!

This was a little work, about 10 to 15 hours stoning the Aluminum action, and sanding down the abused stock, which revealed a Graphite instead of fiberglass version of the old BR model. But for less then $70 dollars I painted it using Kustom Kanz spray cans in Ruby Red Candy with Corse silver base coat over black primer, and used there automotive clear coat called 2k clear in the can, activated the hardener with a grenade ring in the bottom of the can.


In sunlight it looks like it should on a cloudy day if I had listened to them.


It don't look bad in the sun, but I screwed it up when I was told to use 3 coats of Ruby Red Candy over the coarse silver. I decided 5 coats were better than ????? Ironworker mentality prevailed, the more of the transparent candy you use, the more it mutes the coarse silver metallic underneath! still not bad for few dollars over what I started with. check out all their options in a pray can and go for it. If you don't like the outcome of the wood, they have a color you will like, and it's as good as an automotive custom paint job!

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Pretty.