270 Loads...what happened?

[Anonymous]

After a long fall I've finally got around to messing with my "new-to-me" .270 Express.

So I'm starting to think about a load for it and have pretty well read several things and one thing seems pretty clear... .270 loads are significantly lower powered than in years gone by.

O'Connor, Winchester and others widely talk about the standard .270 loads being a 130gr at 3150fps, just perusing load data you find very few loads that even approach that. The long held "standard" powder for the .270- H4831 is only listing 3000 for a 130 right off of Hodgedon's website.

In factory form, only the Superformance and Federal High Energy get that much.

What happened? Was Winchester just being overzealous years ago? I know they put a lot of "blue sky" in some of their chrono data back then but it would seem that modern loads ought to be beating the pants off one developed in the 20s.

Just curious... thinking I'll try 130 and 140ABs first since I've had such good results in the past.

 

[gerry]

By buddy shoots the exact load off of Hodgdon's website, 60 gr of H 4831 sc with a 130 gr Hornady spire point for a bit over 3100 fps and excellent accuracy. H 4831 isn't exactly the same as the older surplus powder either but it still wrks great in it.

 

[Elkman]

I will tell you what I know and then others more knowledgable can correct me and add on. The 270 was introduced very early after the 06. I was not really popular until O"Conner took it under his wing an started extolling its virtues. I "believe" that Winchester really pushed the pressure up with their original loading and the stated velocities were with 26 inch barrels. It was always a question for me when manuals showed the oprerating pressure for the 270 at 53,000 and the 06, using the same case and a slightly larger bullet was only loaded to 49,000 or 50,000 lbs. I think Winchester was "generious" in their published data, in order to sell more rifles. Much like manufactures are today. Thats the best I can do!!!

 

[DrMike]

Bill is correct in stating that Winchester pushed the .270 to higher pressures. They were using CUP rather than PSI, but pressure is pressure.

 

[SJB358]

I think 3100 is pretty attainable in a 270 Win, without hammering it too awfully hard. It is a 65K PSI SAAMI cartridge. RL22 and H4831 should still be excellent powders to get you there.

Cartridge : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .277, 130, Nosler AccuBond 54987
Useable Case Capaci: 60.384 grain H2O = 3.921 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

138 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP 107.0 62.1 4.03 3181 98.9 63000 14203 1.021 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 108.7 61.8 4.00 3163 95.8 63000 14286 1.019 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 108.9 64.4 4.18 3148 94.2 63000 14258 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 109.0 61.3 3.97 3146 97.7 63000 13867 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 109.0 61.3 3.97 3146 97.7 63000 13867 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 109.0 61.3 3.97 3146 97.7 63000 13867 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 106.9 61.1 3.96 3143 96.2 63000 13824 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 110.0 65.6 4.25 3127 96.3 61595 13957 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 107.8 60.6 3.93 3126 96.0 63000 13654 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 110.0 65.4 4.24 3116 96.3 60975 13901 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 110.0 65.4 4.24 3110 96.1 60619 13896 1.030 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 102.9 57.0 3.69 3107 100.0 63000 12133 1.035 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 110.0 60.8 3.94 3103 95.7 62960 13378 1.025 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 100.8 58.0 3.76 3101 99.4 63000 12941 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 93.0 54.3 3.52 3101 100.0 63000 12296 1.017 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 104.7 58.0 3.76 3100 97.4 63000 13095 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 105.4 58.7 3.80 3099 97.6 63000 13185 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 95.3 56.1 3.63 3098 98.9 63000 12956 1.030 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 95.3 56.1 3.63 3098 98.9 63000 12956 1.030 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 106.1 59.1 3.83 3091 97.5 63000 13083 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 100.4 55.3 3.58 3085 99.9 63000 12484 1.034 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 100.5 55.3 3.58 3085 99.9 63000 12480 1.034 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 110.0 60.6 3.92 3084 96.9 59194 13665 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 97.5 55.5 3.59 3084 99.9 63000 12616 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 104.2 55.5 3.59 3081 99.9 63000 12474 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 99.9 57.4 3.72 3073 97.3 63000 12823 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 103.1 57.4 3.72 3073 97.3 63000 12823 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 103.1 57.4 3.72 3073 97.3 63000 12823 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 93.7 53.9 3.49 3067 100.0 63000 12032 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 105.4 56.2 3.64 3067 100.0 63000 12225 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 93.9 53.9 3.50 3066 100.0 63000 12015 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 106.4 59.9 3.88 3065 95.4 63000 12841 1.020 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 105.6 59.4 3.85 3063 98.4 63000 12670 1.041 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 90.6 50.4 3.27 3057 100.0 63000 11927 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 100.7 56.9 3.69 3054 98.6 63000 12459 1.035 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 110.0 63.6 4.12 3052 95.3 59656 13265 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 91.4 50.9 3.30 3049 100.0 63000 11897 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 91.4 50.9 3.30 3049 100.0 63000 11897 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 91.4 50.9 3.30 3049 100.0 63000 11897 1.039 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 103.1 55.5 3.60 3049 100.0 63000 11522 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 103.6 60.8 3.94 3047 97.3 63000 12470 1.027 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 91.8 51.1 3.31 3046 100.0 63000 11792 1.040 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 110.0 59.5 3.86 3044 95.1 61658 12766 1.030 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 110.0 59.5 3.86 3043 94.8 56999 13458 1.060 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 92.7 52.7 3.42 3041 99.8 63000 12031 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 103.9 57.0 3.69 3040 96.3 63000 12447 1.026 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 99.9 55.0 3.57 3040 98.9 63000 12285 1.043 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 102.6 55.9 3.62 3037 98.3 63000 12204 1.029 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 100.7 55.8 3.61 3037 98.4 63000 12186 1.029 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation 110.0 62.4 4.05 3036 92.9 60235 13106 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT ~approximation 94.7 53.2 3.44 3035 99.1 63000 11918 1.017 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 93.1 52.4 3.39 3034 100.0 63000 11602 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 93.4 51.1 3.31 3034 100.0 63000 11469 1.025 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 95.2 52.4 3.40 3029 100.0 63000 11520 1.052 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 95.3 51.9 3.36 3025 100.0 63000 11517 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 98.7 53.8 3.48 3019 99.5 63000 11874 1.043 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 110.0 60.9 3.95 3018 98.9 53175 13449 1.097
Rottweil R907 97.5 53.3 3.45 3017 98.4 63000 12035 1.038 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 94.5 53.3 3.46 3017 98.4 63000 12026 1.038 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 110.0 60.6 3.92 3016 97.7 61023 12244 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 93.9 50.7 3.29 3015 100.0 63000 11467 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 94.2 50.7 3.29 3015 100.0 63000 11467 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT ~approximation 96.3 53.3 3.45 3013 99.5 63000 11639 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 94.8 49.8 3.23 3008 100.0 63000 11270 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 90.7 47.2 3.06 3005 100.0 63000 10695 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361 102.6 60.9 3.94 3002 95.4 63000 12131 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 92.4 50.0 3.24 3001 100.0 63000 11083 1.047 ! Near Maximum !

 

[PJGunner]

If memory serves, those top loads of O'Connor's were reached using H4831 milsurp power which had aged somewhat. When DuPont brought the cannister version of IMR4831, it was made to the original specifications for the powder which made it faster burning than the milsurp version. Data for one was not interchangable with the other. While H4831 is supposed to be somewhat interchangable, I believe it too is a tad faster burning then the original milsurp powder.
I also have to wonder if the .270 has been slightly downloaded in power by the factories because of the semi-auto rifles that chambered the round early on? All I do know is my handloads are more powerful that what the factories are putting out these days and I see no pressure signs. One thing I do believe and certainly disagree with O'Connor is the .270 should have at least a 24" barrel. I like Ruger #1's and sadly passed on one at a gun show that was a 26" barreled .270. I had to decide between it and a NIB Winchester M70 Featherweight in .257 Roberts. The .257 won. If I'd had the cash I'd have bought both.
Paul B.

 

[257 Ackley]

The old AA3100 was what I used for a buddies .270 with the 130 grain bullets. The rifle was an old M70 that his dad gave him along with the recipe for loads. I can't remember the load we ended up with (somewhere around 60 grains), but you could hear the kernels crunching when the bullets were seated! :lol: I never ran it over a chronograph, but it was deadly on everything he pointed it at.

I would think AA Magpro would have to be a decent substitute to try, especially if you are thinking about using 140-150 grain bullets.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replies.

The mil-surp powder makes sense. Of course- thinking that people were actually using surplus artillery powder to reload with seems insane by our modern sensibilities, but those early hand loaders were certainly a different breed.

I agree that the .270 probably needs a 24" barrel for maximum performance. MIne has a 22"...but the next one might not. I've never been a fan of the .270 but as I pass through "middle youth" I'm developing an appreciation for it. If I hunted exclusively in the L48 I could very well just use one all the time.

I wondered if the .270 was "enthusiastically marketed" with regard to velocity. Winchester, in particular, seemed to report some very optimistic data on nearly every new cartridge for a while (and still do to a point) but I didn't know if the trend went back that far. The .264 and .458WM almost never get the performance they claimed- even with a long barrel.

 

[Lou270]

The 270 is alive and well. The newest version of H4831 is not the velocity champ in the .270 anymore, but is less sensitive to temperature. That being said, it is still an excellent choice and depending on the manual gives anywhere from 3000-3150 fps with 59-62 gr of powder. There are several powders today that better velocity of H4831 - Magpro, RL22, Hunter, IMR-7828 to name a few that will match the original 3160 and even crowd 3200 fps with 130s. Incidentally, I have an old speer manual from 60s where they chronographed a variety of 270 130 factory loads (and a bunch of other rounds) and they averaged in the 3100 fps range out of 22" barrel so the .270 did in fact live up to it's claims back in the day.

Lou

 

[Elkman]

The mil-surp powder makes sense. Of course- thinking that people were actually using surplus artillery powder to reload with seems insane by our modern sensibilities, but those early hand loaders were certainly a different breed.

If I am correct in my remembering I did not load with another powder until I bought the 300 Win Mag in 70.Their also may have been a pre 64, 270, in that mix for a short while. That was the heavest rifle I ever packed. Dad had a couple of "large" round cardboard containers of powder and we pretty much used that for all of our loading. Of course we had many fewer rifles then. I beleive we were loading for 3 or 4 different 06's and a 300 B. My herd as multiplied since then.