270wbymag vs 270wsm

[SJB358]

Cool test buddy, that was just about what I was thinking. Seems both of them will get it done pretty well with 150's! I am almost tempted to drag my 270WSM with PT Golds out for elk this year.. It needs some time in the field. Maybe I will take it for deer, if I tag an elk with Whelen I will carry the 270 the rest of the time... I like both of them and I don't think I could give up a good one of either to get the other! Not sure that made sense, but it did in my head.

 

[DrMike]

I will say that in my experience, the WSMs appear easier for me to wring out a measure of accuracy than the Weatherbys. However, I have shot some WBYs that were amazingly accurate.

 

[2ndtimer]

Be aware, guys, that Weatherby now makes 270Wby ammo which can be bought for about $35-40 per box. That's in line with just about every 270WSM box of ammo I've seen. And, you get fine Weatherby (by Norma) brass to reload, versus the RemWinFed brass you get with your 270WSM ammo. Long term, the 'bee is a better bargain, for sure.

Oh, and 2ndtimer, the belt apparently adds 100fps or more to the bullet! It's a good trade!

Maybe so, but Midway offers 5 different factory ammo choices for the WSM in two different bullet weights for less than the price of the single 130 gr Weatherby load offered for less than $40. As a matter of fact, at Midway, at least, the price for unprimed virgin .270 Weatherby brass cases is more than the price of any of the 5 most economical factory AMMMO for the WSM. If velocity is all one cares about, and price is no object, the .270 Weatherby is the winner. But please, please don't try to sell it as a "better bargain". And I also confess that I have very limited experience reloading belted magnum cases, but what experience I have had has shown that the belt is a major pain in the "area located below the belt". And I experienced very short case life, which could be explained by my lack of experience with those cases, but others have reported similar results. I have some .270 WSM cases that have been loaded more than 6 times and still have tight primer pockets and provide reasonable accuracy.

 

[300WSM]

you are comparing 24 inch and 24 inch...

WSM wins :wink:

First let me say this is just a quick and FUN comparison.....between one old school and one new school .277. It is in no way scientific, and doesn't mean much.

I have always read that the Weatherby beats the WSM because it has a 26" tube, my particular WBY came with a 24" pipe, so I thought I would see how they stack up.

This very quick test also shows how you must be careful with data, and proceed with caution......

My plan was to work up to the listed max from the quickload posted by DrMike which was 74.9 for the WBY and 73.4 for the WSM, both showed ~ 107% of the case capacity using Retumbo and the 150gr deepcurl.

I started running into pressure signs with the WSM well below the 73.4gr mark (at about 71.3gr), and just showed very slight pressure signs at the listed WBY max of 74.9.

I think the WBY could handle another grain or two....

Here are the results of the Retumbo test-----

WSM with 71.3gr = 3128fps

WBY with 74.9gr = 3071fps

Accuracy with both was acceptable, the WSM just under and 1" and the WBY just over 1"

I will try and do another powder test in the next few days.

Imagine that...someone called that spot on....hey wait. That was me. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[300WSM]

Be aware, guys, that Weatherby now makes 270Wby ammo which can be bought for about $35-40 per box. That's in line with just about every 270WSM box of ammo I've seen. And, you get fine Weatherby (by Norma) brass to reload, versus the RemWinFed brass you get with your 270WSM ammo. Long term, the 'bee is a better bargain, for sure.

Oh, and 2ndtimer, the belt apparently adds 100fps or more to the bullet! It's a good trade!

I had to jump in on this. How on earth is it a better bargain long term? Long term or short term it isn't. Moreover the word Weatherby and bargain should never be inter-twined. What is clear here is that Weatherby did in fact do something and that was sharpen the pencil on this because...they had to. Who would want to buy ammo virtually double in price in which the 270 wby stuff nearly was when performance is equal, albeit the wby in some cases a little SLOWER as evident by a recent poster's test.
Essentially the bargain you are pointing to is because of the Norma brass. I don't think the Norma brass is so spectacular that one can overlook the actual return on investment. Return on investment being number of shots fired with said brass and accuracy. Rem, Win, Fed brass might be inferior on the quality scale compared to Norma but the Rem Win Fed brass in the WSM flavor is going to yield an incredible number of firings. It shoots pretty darn accurate as well. Accurate enough for most shooters and their hunting rig's ability.

Both rounds are great. Actually all three in the .277 are darn good choices.

 

[SJB358]

I have some .270 WSM cases that have been loaded more than 6 times and still have tight primer pockets and provide reasonable accuracy.

My 270WSM cases are probably getting on their 12-13th firing now. They are TOUGH. Minimally sized, they last. If you anneal, they last longer. I am not babying my 270WSM either. 150's at 3150 is a fairly stout load. This is with plain old WW cases as well, so I am not shooting premium cases in this rig. Haven't ever lost a primer pocket in them, a couple of split case necks, but by and larger, they hold up really well.

Not knocking the 270WBY a bit, I would imagine it is good for a 100FPS over the 270WSM with the right set up. Belt on the WBY doesn't bother me either. Sized correctly, it should last a long time as well, and it does have a longer neck, which is an advantage to me. Really pretty close in performance, at least to my eyes. It is a very cool cartridge though, I think the 7mm WBY is cooler though! :wink:

 

[Songdog]

Either way..... they both suck compared to the 7mm Rem.

 

[Guest]

I've not had issues loaded belted mags, and I've also had good case life out of my Norma brass in my 270Wby. And I'm pushing it by every measure. I've run pressure safe loads (with published data) and gotten 3500fps out of 130gr bullets (IMR7828ssc current published data). No 270WSM is going to pull that off even in a 26" barrel. As for the results of double_d's comparison, I suspect if we pressure tested those loads, we'd find the WSM load is pushing somewhere between 65-70kpsi, while the Weatherby load is pushing something more like 60-65kpsi, based on his comments. Run the extra "grain or two" in the 'bee and I bet the results are reversed, and the 'bee ends up with about a 75-100fps advantage (due to the extra 4-5gr case capacity over the WSM). Push them both to 65kpsi, and you'll get a different result. The laws of physics cannot be defied, guys, regardless of what you've been told by gun magazines about "cartridge efficiency" and so forth. A bullet leaves the barrel at a certain velocity based on the pressure behind it. The same bullet, at a higher velocity, is leaving in front of a higher pressure.

I don't have anything against the WSM. Heck, I own one - in 270WSM. And if I had the money, I'd own a 7 and a 300 and a 325, just to own them. I know where a 300 is right now in a Browning Eclipse for dirt cheap and I can't afford it or it wouldn't be available anymore. The long and the short of it is, the WSM is a great round. So is the 'bee. And, for that matter, so is the 270Win. But in an equal pressure & barrel length situation, which still leaves the WSM with half an inch of rifled bore more than the 'bee, the 'bee is going to come out on top. There's just no other way to apply the laws of physics. It's not magic.

Beyond that, enjoy what you have. I'll stake my 'bee against any rifle out there, out to my shooting limits. I won't lose much, either.

 

[Gm weatherby man]

I own a 270 wsm, only reason was that vangaurd had no offering in the bee :roll: , don't get me wrong i love the 270 wsm for it is beyound accurate 8) .I how ever did not buy thinking of case prices, for if that was the case i only have one rifle besides the 22lr, wouldn;t that be wise. :lol:

 

[jmad_81]

Am I missing something? Why do some people seem to hate belted mags? I have been hearing this sense I started reloading. I shoot a few of them and don't have any issues, but I might be missing something.

I have never been able to get a 270 WSM to shoot a 140 AB accurately, and without pressure issues over 3200 ( I've owned 3 of them). I've tried RL-22, MagPro, RL-25, and Retumbo. I'm still working at it though. I have a great 140 AB load that is doing 3130 fps. The best three shot group is .07" (average group size is just under .5"), but for some sick reason I want more.


I'm about to be able to play with a 270 Weatherby so I'll be more qualified to speak to that next winter. I am willing to burn more powder to go faster. The only time that it is really going to add up is during load development. After that I bet it doesn't burn an extra can of powder over its life when compared to a WSM.

In reality, no game will ever know the difference. For me its all in my head that I have to break the 3200 mark with a 140 AB to have my dream deer/speed goat gun. Will a 140 AB @ 2900 fps work, yep, but my ego/addiction/manhood/addiction/sickness won't allow me to be happy with that for some reason, I honestly can't help it.

 

[SJB358]

Am I missing something? Why do some people seem to hate belted mags? I have been hearing this sense I started reloading. I shoot a few of them and don't have any issues, but I might be missing something.

I have never been able to get a 270 WSM to shoot a 140 AB accurately, and without pressure issues over 3200 ( I've owned 3 of them). I've tried RL-22, MagPro, RL-25, and Retumbo. I'm still working at it though. I have a great 140 AB load that is doing 3130 fps. The best three shot group is .07" (average group size is just under .5"), but for some sick reason I want more.


I'm about to be able to play with a 270 Weatherby so I'll be more qualified to speak to that next winter. I am willing to burn more powder to go faster. The only time that it is really going to add up is during load development. After that I bet it doesn't burn an extra can of powder over its life when compared to a WSM.

In reality, no game will ever know the difference. For me its all in my head that I have to break the 3200 mark with a 140 AB to have my dream deer/speed goat gun. Will a 140 AB @ 2900 fps work, yep, but my ego/addiction/manhood/addiction/sickness won't allow me to be happy with that for some reason, I honestly can't help it.

Now you got both! Standing by for targets! Can't wait!

 

[300WSM]

I've not had issues loaded belted mags, and I've also had good case life out of my Norma brass in my 270Wby. And I'm pushing it by every measure. I've run pressure safe loads (with published data) and gotten 3500fps out of 130gr bullets (IMR7828ssc current published data). No 270WSM is going to pull that off even in a 26" barrel. As for the results of double_d's comparison, I suspect if we pressure tested those loads, we'd find the WSM load is pushing somewhere between 65-70kpsi, while the Weatherby load is pushing something more like 60-65kpsi, based on his comments. Run the extra "grain or two" in the 'bee and I bet the results are reversed, and the 'bee ends up with about a 75-100fps advantage (due to the extra 4-5gr case capacity over the WSM). Push them both to 65kpsi, and you'll get a different result. The laws of physics cannot be defied, guys, regardless of what you've been told by gun magazines about "cartridge efficiency" and so forth. A bullet leaves the barrel at a certain velocity based on the pressure behind it. The same bullet, at a higher velocity, is leaving in front of a higher pressure.

You can twist this thirteen different ways to make the results different.
He was shooting a 150 grain. The rifles both had the 24" bbl. This is why the WSM is humming a little bit faster. Change the bullets...change the bbl length and yes indeed a different result will happen.
As far as the pressure you speak of, please don't go there with trying to point fingers at which one has what for pressure. You can take two different rifles, (as is the case here) and get pressure signs in one and not the other. Yet the actual pressure in the one not showing the signs of it are higher.
You can't point the finger at physics here yet magically leave out geometry and efficiency.
As far as the gun rags go, I only hold solid stock in what I know myself. However when you have basically every article written on this type of subject the opinion is the same abroad...something must be leaning that way. :?
The action size here has been skipped over and I'm not sure why. What positive can one have using a long action over a short action? Weight? No. Stiffness? No. Length of travel? No.

I love weatherby calibers and I think what Roy came up with ages ago is astounding.
This is however 2012 and there are some other real players out there. That doesn't mean the Weatherby is now taking the back seat. It just means the WSM is on same the playing field and in some cases batting lead off.

 

[300WSM]

Am I missing something? Why do some people seem to hate belted mags? I have been hearing this sense I started reloading. I shoot a few of them and don't have any issues, but I might be missing something.

This is old reloader garage talk. When Joe six pack gets over 10 firings from his odd six and Bobby twelve pack is only getting 4 shots on a good cycle out of his belted mag....now comes the black eye to the belted magnum.
However when the reloader is basically full length re-sizing every time.... see what I mean?

Let me ask you this..

Do you think you can shoot a belted mag ...for the thread sake..a 270 wby case as many times as a 270 wsm case?

 

[jmad_81]

I honestly couldn't tell you, I don't know. I would imagine that if there was never a high pressure occurance, and all brass types being the same, yes. I know I'm well over five with my 338 WM brass, and three on my 7 STW brass. I'm over ten on my .243 win brass, but I shoot it a lot more.

 

[Guest]

300, we're going to have to disagree about this, I'm sure, but I can tell you from the standpoint of physics, as well as math, engineering, and the various laws of thermodynamics, geometry and efficiency are mysterious words that mean exactly diddly when it comes to what happens when the primer is struck. If you want to talk about efficiency, the 30-30WCF is more efficient than the 308Win, which is more efficient than the -06, which is more efficient than the 300WSM or the 300WinMag, which are both more efficient than the 300Wby. And yet, every last time, the Weatherby launches a bullet of equal weight, from equal barrel lengths, faster than any of the more efficient cartridges. I've had this discussion with a fellow who manufactures rifles for a living, two noted, published ballisticians, a couple of current outdoor writers, and numerous people with combined loading and shooting experience in the millions of hours. What you're relying on as fact in the gun rags is copy written to sell magazine advertising. Ever wonder why, when the newest whiz-bang rifle and cartridge are reviewed in a magazine, there's a two page spread of advertising inside for that specific rifle? It's not magic.

Heck, I had a 7mmRemMag that would only run about 2750 with 160gr bullets using published data. And some of those loads showed pressure signs, sometimes. Does that make the 280Rem it's equal because a friend of mine could wring out 2750-2800fps from the same bullets in his rifle? With the same barrel length? Of course not. Nobody would argue that, sanely.

Your assertion that the heavier bullet favors the WSM case is also not well based. In the heavier bullet, the case volume of the WSM is reduced even further, versus the larger case and longer neck of the Weatherby. As I said earlier - I'd like to see a controlled test with pressure measurements, and I'll even go one further - using a variety of powders so that each cartridge can be maximized in matching burn rate to bullet weight and case volume. If that were done, I suspect it would follow the existing data available in load manuals all over the place, and show the extra 4-5gr of case capacity to be the deciding factor.

Moreover, the 150gr bullet from my 270Wby (with a 26" barrel) will run 3250 all day long without signs of pressure. Subtract 50-100fps for barrel length, and the game changes.

Don't take it too hard. It's just a disagreement over which cartridge is "fastest." It's not life or death.

Out of curiosity, do you believe the 300WSM is faster than the 300WinMag, or vice versa? Just curious.

 

[wbyfan1]

I load for my sons 270 WSM. It's an accurate little booger, but must have a slow barrel. 3200 fps is about all I can get using handloaded 130's before pressure signs show up. Factory ammo is about the same or even a skosh slower. Accuracy node is in the area 3000-3100 fps. I've tried all the Slow burning RL powders, from 17-22. Even tried IMR 7828, but just can't obtain the numbes others claim to get. Oh well, it still kills deer and hogs lickity split and my son loves it.
Heck, I even like it for the short action.

All that being said, I wouldn't even think of giving up my 270 Wby for it. It shoots sub moa groups with 130's at almost 3500fps. Don't notice that it recoils much more than my sons WSM.

 

[double_d]

Sorry guys....I sure didn't mean for this to turn into a pi$$ing match. I have never been one to go much over published data... with that being said.....the WSM was topped out in MY gun where I felt comfortable.......the WBY still had room to shift into another gear, so I have no doubt that the WSM was a higher pressure load than the WBY.

What got this going was to see what a 150gr deepcurl would do in a water jug test at 3100fps....I will now be able to show the results as soon as the kids drink another gallon or two of milk. :grin:

 

[aka Hunter]

As for the results of double_d's comparison, I suspect if we pressure tested those loads, we'd find the WSM load is pushing somewhere between 65-70kpsi, while the Weatherby load is pushing something more like 60-65kpsi, based on his comments. Run the extra "grain or two" in the 'bee and I bet the results are reversed....The laws of physics cannot be defied...[a] bullet leaves the barrel at a certain velocity based on the pressure behind it. The same bullet, at a higher velocity, is leaving in front of a higher pressure.

W, thanks for saving me the effort of saying what you said.

 

[300WSM]

300, we're going to have to disagree about this, I'm sure, but I can tell you from the standpoint of physics, as well as math, engineering, and the various laws of thermodynamics, geometry and efficiency are mysterious words that mean exactly diddly when it comes to what happens when the primer is struck. If you want to talk about efficiency, the 30-30WCF is more efficient than the 308Win, which is more efficient than the -06, which is more efficient than the 300WSM or the 300WinMag, which are both more efficient than the 300Wby. And yet, every last time, the Weatherby launches a bullet of equal weight, from equal barrel lengths, faster than any of the more efficient cartridges. I've had this discussion with a fellow who manufactures rifles for a living, two noted, published ballisticians, a couple of current outdoor writers, and numerous people with combined loading and shooting experience in the millions of hours. What you're relying on as fact in the gun rags is copy written to sell magazine advertising. Ever wonder why, when the newest whiz-bang rifle and cartridge are reviewed in a magazine, there's a two page spread of advertising inside for that specific rifle? It's not magic.

Please quote what I really typed here. I said I only hold stock in any of this with what I have first hand experience with. Having said that when there seems to be a consensus of something...it can't always be from advertising...unless the opinion differs from yous?
Geometry and efficiency might be only fancy words to you but they do play a major role in things.
There is a point at which more powder can't be over looked...but what happens if you are not using all the powder of rifle "A" in a propelling manner...but rifle "b" is using a lower charge but 99.9% of the charge when ignited is actually propelling the bullet. Suddenly the gap closes because rifle "b" would be considered more efficient. This is not a comparison of 70 plus grains of powder to a cartridge with only 45. The difference there is great and that difference will no doubt result in a hotter running round....regardless if it burns efficient or not.

Your assertion that the heavier bullet favors the WSM case is also not well based.

I never asserted such a thing. I merely said that in a 150 to 150 comparison and bbl length being equal..the wsm edges it out. Which it did. I have seen this first hand and its why I wasn't surprised with the results. I even said the wsm would go faster before the results were in.

Don't take it too hard. It's just a disagreement over which cartridge is "fastest." It's not life or death.

I didn't take anything hard or soft. I do chuckle though when anytime something is faster than a Weatherby...especially the flagship rounds...(257,270,300) there has to be a foul called in some form or another.

Out of curiosity, do you believe the 300WSM is faster than the 300WinMag, or vice versa? Just curious.

There is no black and white answer on this and if you think there is...certainly you can't think there is. I have 5 WSM rifles sitting about 10 feet from me right this second and two of them will dust a WIN mag. One will run with it. The other two rifles the WIN mag is faster. Its too close to call on that one without doing the twist and turn comparison and what ifs.

Thank god you can't find a Lazeroni at every mom and pop gun shop or there would be chest pains running like a brush fire in the WBY crowd. :lol: :lol:

p.s.
Please know as I echo again...I love the WBY rounds and especially what Roy did so very long ago is still incredible and seldom bested.

 

[boomer68]

I used to own a Vanguard in 270Wby, and was getting consistent 3250fps with 150gr from the factory 24" barrel. I did hit pressure with 130gr at 3400 though. Safely got to 3350-3375fps.
Can't get those numbers from a WSM...just saying