.308 with heavy for caliber bullets

[kraky1]

Here is probably the most awesome online bullet test I've ever seen. And this is where I got sold on lighter monolithic bullets vs heavy lead bullets. The GMX and the nosler etip pretty much out performed the TTSX..... and pretty much everything else. As a matter of fact if you look closely I think you'll agree a 165 GMX 308 bullet performed as well or better than a 260 grain Nosler 375 AccuBond everywhere it mattered including wt retention, frontal area, and penetration.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... /7222554/1

A quick look at my ql program running up to 62 k pressure says your 20" barrel should do the following...

150 grain bullet 2825
165 2725
180 2600
200 2525

You may not quite get to these numbers with a mono bullet but darn close. They'll hold 90+% of their wt vrs 60% of a lead bullet.

 

[Guy Miner]

It's no secret that the ancient .30-30 with a good 170 grain soft point at a mere 2100 fps remains a very effective killer, with good penetration and expansion both...

Not a lot of energy, but a good game taker all the same.

I like these heavier bullets at modest velocity.

Well worth looking at the newer mono-metal bullets like the E-Tip though - they really do perform differently and allow a lighter bullet to do jobs formerly relegated to heavier conventional bullets.

Guy

 

[BretN]

I was just going to say the same thing Guy said about the 30-30. That was a high speed, heavy hitting round in it's day.

There aren't too many animals in NA that can stand up long after a well placed 180 or 200 grain bullet from a 308. If that 200 gr Partition shoots well, use it. If you can get the AccuBond to shoot better, there's nothing wrong there either. Though I went through quite a few frustrating AccuBond range sessions, until I heeded advise here to back them off the lands quite a ways. I did have very good accuracy with them at .050" off. Good luck with it.

 

[35 Whelen]

Well there is some pretty interesting figures flying around here and I think we better set the record straight ,IF there is anyone that truly believes that a 308 Win is actually a 30/06,then it could be, there really is a "tooth fairy".
I have been hearing this for 40 years from guys that love a 308 rifles, and of course this is always based on the fact that someone took a box of factory ammo that was loaded to old SAAMI specs of 50,000 PSI and then compared it to a 308 loading that was at SAAMI spec of 62,000 psi. Of course, in that case, like PJ mentioned his figures do hold water , HOWEVER a 308 Winchester is NOT a 30/06, at all. And if they are both loaded to the same preasure; there is a big difference between them. To reference PJ figures, of the 308 shooting a 180gr bullet 2600fps that sounds about right to me. But to shed a little different light on the 30/06 figures, I shoot from my Model 70, 30/06; a 180gr loading at 2800fps, a 165gr loading at 2925fps, and cracking 3000fps with 150gr bullets, isn't a big deal out of my rifle. None of these loads are MAX loadings in my gun, So just to level the playing field . I would say expect to see around "200fps" more velocity at any of those referenced bullet weights when the 30/06 is not limited to old fashioned Model 95 Winchester, or Enfield preasures............. over the 308, when barrel lengths are equal, Or about half way between a 300 Mag and the 308Win velocitys. So some of this stuff doesn't hold water.
I would expect it to trim the 308 even more that the 200fps, at the 200gr level, as the little 308 with its limited case capacity is really going to stuggle with that big bullet.
Not trying to start an age old argument up again, but if you really think a 308 is equal to a 30/06 after you look at the size of the two cases, and the extra powder that a 30/06 holds, then I probably could never convinced you otherwise, so good luck. :wink:
L&L its fun to fool around with big bullets, and the 200gr bullet is a great bullet in a 300 Mag, but I bet when its all washed out as the years go by , you will shoot around a 165gr outta your gun, because that is were it is actually going to perform the best for you.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Geeze, I'm not sure what's worse the 308 fanboys saying "anything your 30'06 can do my 308 can do too" or the 30'06 fanboys who insist the 308 stays at the kids table...... Thankfully I'm neither. And no, I'm not looking to make my 308 a 30'06. I'm just looking to see if maybe I can make it a .308+p so to speak... and maybe that is close enough for rock n roll.

Certainly heavier and slower bullets have killed countless animals. Just ask the buffalo... I'm not sure how many will be able to be reached for comment though....

I'm going to trudge on with my experiments. I got a chance to sight in my rifle at the range today but by the time I got there, it was too dark for the chronograph to work. Luckily for me, I live within walking distance of my range. And tomorrow is a new day.

 

[Dr. Vette]

Regarding a range, here in Michigan we can shoot on certain pieces of public land, so we (me and Dad or my shooting partners) often shoot in an opening in the woods that goes to 500 yards. Might there be land or similar where you could legally shoot further than 200 yards?

Just a thought.

 

[Guy Miner]

LifeandLiberty - I think there's just a LOT of interest in your idea - and people are posting their thoughts - because so many of us have a lot of experience with various .30 cal cartridges.

Heck, right now I've got:

.30-30 Glenfield
.308 Win Browning BLR
.308 Win Remington 700 varmint barrel (have worn out a few .308 Win barrels)
.30-06 Model of 1917 (21")
.30-06 Remington 700 CDL (24")
.300 WSM Winchester Model 70

And in the past there were more, including a few .300 Win mags and a .300 Rem Ultra Mag.

Frankly, they've all done real well. Americans like our .30's - and we're interested in what you're doing with one.

Regards, Guy

 

[SJB358]

LifeandLiberty - I think there's just a LOT of interest in your idea - and people are posting their thoughts - because so many of us have a lot of experience with various .30 cal cartridges.

Heck, right now I've got:

.30-30 Glenfield
.308 Win Browning BLR
.308 Win Remington 700 varmint barrel (have worn out a few .308 Win barrels)
.30-06 Model of 1917 (21")
.30-06 Remington 700 CDL (24")
.300 WSM Winchester Model 70

And in the past there were more, including a few .300 Win mags and a .300 Rem Ultra Mag.

Frankly, they've all done real well. Americans like our .30's - and we're interested in what you're doing with one.

Regards, Guy

I'll echo that. Love to see load work with different stuff. It's part of the fun for me in this hobby.

 

[kraky1]

I'm a 30 lover tooo......
2 3030 rifles +1 contender 3030
1 7.5x55 Swiss k31
3 308
1 3006
1 300 win
1 300 wby
1 30-378

Because of all this I have more 30 Cal bullets on hand than my local gun shop! Lol

 

[PJGunner]

L&L. The longest shot I ever made with a .308 was 426 paces. No idea how fast the 150 gr. Sierra was traveling as no chronographs or rangefinders around back in 1973. The shot was paced off by two others as well as myself and the total averaged out. Rifle was a Remington 660 with 20" 1 in 10" twist barrel. Not sure what brass I was using that day but Primers were the CCI 200s and powder was H335. I hunted that rifle from early summer 1973 until I moved to Arizona in August of 1979 due to a job transfer. I mostly hunted deer with the 150's, sometimes with 180's if I was hunting on a ranch I gained access too. Out in the boonies though it was mostly with 150 gr. bullets.
It was not until I moved to Arizona that I started playing with 165 gr. bullets which I now consider standard for my .308 use. I liked the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core for general use but would look at the AccuBond and Partition for game heavier than deer. I'll probably never get to hunt a moose but if that should happen and for some reason have to go with a .308, probably the 165 gr. as mentioned or possibly the AccuBond and Partition in 180 gr.
Where I hunt elk though, my shots have come from 100 to 350 yards. One of my hunt partners had to take his elk at a bit over 400 yards and my other partner at 450+ yards. Personally I think that might be stretching a .308 with heavy bullets awfully thin.
My normal rifle for elk is a .35 Whelen and my 350 yard shot was IMHO kind of stretching it with that cartridge, the bullet a 225 gr. exiting the muzzle at 2710 FPS, possibly a bit slower as it was about 25 degrees with a bit of a chill factor getting near zero.
I'm not disparaging the round. It's a good one. But it's not a 30-06. My custom 30-06 with a 24" 1 in12" twist barrel doesn't shoot 180 gr. bullets worth spit but I can push 165's to an easy 2900 FPS and probably 3000+ if I push it. A 22" barreled Remington M700 will run 180 gr. Hornady SP's to 2800 FPS plus a little with ease.
FWIW, My Ruger 77 RSI with 18.5" barrel does 2550 FPS with a 165 gr. Speer Hot Core. That's more i the .300 Savage territory but is the only load that rifle will shoot with any degree of accuracy, (1.25-1.50" tops) Anything else and it's a scatter gun. I love that little rifle and it's taken it's share of deer. My Winchester M70 in .308 will shoot that same load to 2610FPS with sub-MOA groups. (22" 1 in 12" barrel) I've never run that load through the M660 but figure velocity is somewhere in the middle. :roll: :lol: :lol:
Paul B.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

OK Folks. Results are in.

Set up a few targets at 100 yards. I was pretty impressed with the accuracy of what I had tested, although some were clearly more accurate loadings than others. You're probably not going to believe the conclusion.

Rifle: Savage Model 10 Precision Carbine .308. 20" Heavy Barrel 1:10" twist, end threaded (thread protector on only, no muzzle break)
Nosler Brass, brand new never fired. Full length sized. CCI 200 Primers. All bullets seated to around 2.82" (a hair over spec COL).
Caldwell Chronograph placed around 12.5 feet from the bench (roughly 4 yards).
41 degrees at the start of setting up according to weather app, 37 degrees at end.

I took a few shots of 180grain Accubonds with Varget to baseline. Copy/Paste out of excel I hope this is legible.

180 Grain Accubonds w/ Varget
Grains Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Shot 4 Average FPS Std Dev
43 2517 2505 2495 2532 2512.25 13.81
43.5 2537 2548 2500 2538 2530.75 18.27


200 Grain Partitions w/ Reloader 17
Grains Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Shot 4 Average FPS Std Dev
42.5 2247 2238 2212 2221 2229.50 13.76
43 2236 2244 2243 2223 2236.50 8.38
43.5 2258 2290 2260 2257 2266.25 13.75
44 2364 2324 2317 2285 2322.50 28.11
44.5 2337 2350 2326 BATT 2337.67 9.81
45 2367 2370 2354 2354 2361.25 7.33
45.5 2407 2408 2389 2417 2405.25 10.16
46 2418 2425 2409 2448 2425.00 14.44

I will post a picture of the cases. Ultimately, no deformation of the cases. At 46 grains there is a slight reduction in the depth of the firing pin strike into the primer, but it is not night and day. I did not load any rounds in excess of 46 grains. Maybe I'll try 46.25 some other time, but I don't particularly feel the need to. As luck would have it, the average FPS I am getting is exactly where I was hoping to be... I can hear some of you calling BS already, but the numbers are what they are! No issues with heavy bolt handle lifts either, like others have reported online. I wonder if I wouldn't have the primer signs with Winchester brass, due to the brass potentially having more case capacity and therefore building less pressure? Now I'm just talking to myself.

The loads are screaming, most recoil I've felt for sure out of my 308 but manageable. Went back to the Nosler book's max loads for 180 grains with Varget after working up and it was fairly comparable to the 46grains of Rx17 with 200 grain bullets but definitely less. Definitely kicking more than factory ammo. For whatever its worth, I sighted in at 100 yards with 165 grain Hornady BTHP rounds, and while the first few iterations of the 200 grains were low, by the end I was hitting the bullseye I was aiming for. I managed to get the chrono to read one time before it got too dark a few days ago, and one of those 165 grain bullets registered around 2550 and I had the chrono a bit closer.

I will say those 180 grain accubonds were slightly more accurate than the 200 grain partitions. I will have to do more tests now that I've established the loads are safe at 200 yards to see how that difference in accuracy plays out at 200 yards. If I had to guess, I would say the groupings were about a half an inch difference between the accubonds and the partitions. For a hunting bullet though (exposed lead, non boat tail, non polymer tip) I am very pleased with the partitions too. Other exposed lead bullets I have shot (remington Core lokt) just did not give me anywhere near the accuracy. For whatever it is worth, I felt the bolt cycled better with the partitions than the accubonds. That tip got hung up a time or two. Not a big deal, but something I noticed. Just had to back out a bit and it went right in.

Using the online ballistics calculator I linked previously, at these velocities, at 300 yards the difference between the 200 grain Partition and the 180 grain AccuBond is about 1.1 inches of drop. Half the size of an empty 308 case. On a target the size of a Moose, Elk, or Caribou, I would call that negligible. Certainly doesn't have the energy a 30'06 would at that range, but I'd say its holding its own.

I'll stop here.... thoughts?

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[kraky1]

Your 39 degree temps mild down the load about 40 fps according to QL.
Once that is factored in ql is very very close to your actual results. If I add a small amount of case capacity to make a match (.5 grains) a step up chart would look like this...
Bottom line...if it were me I would say you can easily get to 2500 fps if you wish in that temperature and likely be under 60k pressure. Just watch closely if you work up. If primer pockets stay tight over 5-6 reloads Id say your fine.
On the other hand if you're happy...then youre happy....LOL

• Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
  Bullet : .308, 200, Nosler PART SP 35626
  Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.820 inch or 71.63 mm
  Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
  Powder : ? Alliant Reloder-17 ?, Temperature: 39 °F
  
  Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
  incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
  CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
  
  Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
  % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
  
  -10.0 93 41.40 2171 2092 37290 8889 94.6 1.341
  -09.0 94 41.86 2197 2143 38532 9002 95.1 1.320
  -08.0 95 42.32 2223 2195 39831 9113 95.6 1.299
  -07.0 96 42.78 2249 2247 41170 9219 96.1 1.279
  -06.0 97 43.24 2275 2299 42562 9322 96.6 1.259
  -05.0 98 43.70 2302 2353 44004 9420 97.0 1.239
  -04.0 99 44.16 2328 2407 45502 9514 97.4 1.220
  -03.0 100 44.62 2354 2462 47057 9604 97.8 1.201
  -02.0 101 45.08 2381 2517 48666 9690 98.1 1.182
  -01.0 102 45.54 2407 2573 50348 9771 98.4 1.164
  +00.0 103 46.00 2433 2630 52093 9847 98.7 1.146
  +01.0 104 46.46 2460 2687 53906 9918 99.0 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
  +02.0 105 46.92 2486 2745 55792 9984 99.2 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
  +03.0 106 47.38 2512 2803 57753 10045 99.4 1.094 ! Near Maximum !
  +04.0 107 47.84 2539 2862 59797 10100 99.6 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
  +05.0 108 48.30 2565 2921 61926 10150 99.7 1.060 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  
  Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
  Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  +Ba 103 46.00 2561 2914 63219 9493 100.0 1.056 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  -Ba 103 46.00 2255 2258 42410 9508 91.8 1.262

 

[SJB358]

Great results. 2400 with that 200 PT is a hammer.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Kraky - I don't have quickload but it sounds like I need it.

I'm wondering how your values differ from the ones posted on page one. 46 grains was the most I could do under those assumptions without exceeding max pressure. Is the difference here the temperature or is it the fact that I am seating the bullet out farther? Because if it is the seating depth, I know I can go another .01 farther out and be fine. After 2.83 I begin to run into issues with the magazine and reliability when feeding operating the bolt.

I don't want to rely on a round that is only good in a certain temperature range or nuclear outside of it.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Great results. 2400 with that 200 PT is a hammer.

Thank you. Sharing these results among friends, a guide I know and respect is still telling me to ditch the 308 in favor of an 06. I'm thinking at this point, if I needed something more than I'm getting with my 308, I'm probably in 300WSM/Winmag territory.

 

[gerry]

I will mention I had trouble getting past 2600 fps with a 200 gr AccuBond in the past with my old 30-06. It was super accurate though. 2600 fps may be enough for what you are looking for, the next step is a 300 WSM which can break 2800 fps with a 200.

 

[35 Whelen]

Jerry,
2600 is right where we wound up with 220gr bullet from the 30/06 years ago as well , if I remember correctly that was like 54.5grs of 4350, to crack 2600 ? And I think my old load for the 250gr Barnes bullets was just 54gr of 4831 used to show 2425 fps. Those are probably way over what the book says.

 

[Guy Miner]

Ya, 2600 fps, can be done with a 200 gr Partition from a .30-06, and 2800+ from the .300 WSM or other .300 magnums. All without deviating from published "book" loads.

I remember reading some years ago, Craig Boddington claiming that the .30-06 with a good 180 gr bullet at normal velocity, was an excellent choice for all-around hunting. He included great praise for it as a combo for African plains game.

Guy

 

[kraky1]

L&L ....Re17 is not a powder thats promoted to be insensitive to temp changes like some of the hogdon powders and now enduron powder. So as it gets cooler the pressure and speeds will drop off. You wouldn't want to develop a high end load in 39 degree temps and shoot it at 80.
I've used it in my 308, a 300 wsm, and my 3006 and it tracks well with quickload but quickload is not the same as actually pressure testing.
I can tell you that I checked my records and ran a 208 amax in my 26" savage LE 308 with 47 grains and my results over the chrono in 60 degree weather were spot on with quickload. It did 2610fps and quickload said it was making 62k pressure.
This was in a win case. When I reloaded the casings that had been run the primer pockets were as tight as virgin....but it was only one reloading.
So I can only give you my experience and the decisions on how to push are up to you. I personally think you have room to go but then an extra 75 fps isn't killing important. You may gain accuracy working up...or it might go the other way.