.308 with heavy for caliber bullets

[35 Whelen]

L&L here is a part of a story I just was reading by Nat Foster on Terminal Ballistics site, kinda interesting on the .308 with heavy bullets thought you may be interested , this does not pertain to a 200gr but this is what he had to say about it. Quote:

"The 220 grain Sierra bullet, is not well suited to .308 velocities, not due to its bullet design or construction but more because of potential muzzle velocities. The 220 grain round nose excels in killing performance when driven at velocities of around and a little above 2400fps. The .308 can only drive this bullet weight at 2150fps and problems such as over expansion (failure to reduce frontal area) due to loss of velocity during penetration, tend to produce counterproductive results. :wink:

Just a note about heavy bullets in the 308 from watching hunters shoot animals over the last 40 years as a guide............... On DEER, so this doesn't apply to Moose, Elk or Bear, I have seen a lot of Deer shot with the 180gr bullet, and like any caliber and any bullet weight; if they are hit correctly about anything will do it, But for my money, unless they are shoulder shot,with a 180gr or end for ended. I would say that a 150gr bullet; on DEER; was considerably better combo when the deer isn't shot right where it should be , a lot of times the 180gr bullets going around 2500fps when they hit a deer don't seam to open up well, and just punch smallish holes thru em, of course hit right in the shoulder it would flatten them. The 150s on the other hand because of extra velocity seams to always expand correctly and I found them to work nicely. Just a thought...........

 

[kraky1]

I hate to sound like a hot rodder but some of your guys are leaving some 3006 performance on the table. Re17 is another super performer there. I've seen a number of people work up to 2700 with a normal 30 odd 6 hunting rifle and a 200 AccuBond. I've made it there at 55 grains and that was with federal brass and no pressure signs.
Those results also tracked perfectly with quick load and it was forecast at 62k pressure.
This was in a 22.5 inch tikka which admittedly has a little bit of free bore.... my records say it shot 1.1 inches at 200 yards...4 shots.
It's really an awesome powder for the 308-3006 -270 win 2506 and 300 WSM and probably lots more.
As a kind of a humorous comparison two weeks ago a buddy brought over some 300 WSM federal factory loaded cases that was shot one time in his Browning abolt. Almost everyone had extractor circles and A few had the terrible shiny shiny extractor mark. A few cases wouldn't even hold new primers but we used about 80% of them based on feel w/hand primer. .... I told him we were only going to do one reload and it was going to be a light load...then all will be tossed. It's not the first time I've seen extractor marks on federal 300 WSM brass..... I think it's pretty much standard procedure...lol!

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Just got someone with many more years experience reloading than me to take a look at the deprimed cases in person from the 46 grains of Rx17.... no signs of excessive pressure whatsoever. I also reprimed the four and the pockets were still tight.

I did buy a box of 180 grain partitions today. Since these are smaller than the 180 grain accubonds, I could probably get these moving a bit faster with Reloader 17 and have more case capacity than with the 180 grain accubonds.

 

[SJB358]

That might be a deadly combo right there. I'd bet you'll get good speed out of them.

 

[Guy Miner]

Just got someone with many more years experience reloading than me to take a look at the deprimed cases in person from the 46 grains of Rx17.... no signs of excessive pressure whatsoever. I also reprimed the four and the pockets were still tight.

I did buy a box of 180 grain partitions today. Since these are smaller than the 180 grain accubonds, I could probably get these moving a bit faster with Reloader 17 and have more case capacity than with the 180 grain accubonds.

First time I used a 180 gr Nosler Partition was back in the early/mid 1980's. How did that get to be so long ago? I was hunting boar - at 40 yards put one right through the critter's heart. Dang... I was impressed with the results. Very dead boar, very fast. Not incredible penetration on that shot, I put it right behind his foreleg, in and out, dead boar. Great bullet.

Regards, Guy

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

That might be a deadly combo right there. I'd bet you'll get good speed out of them.

Would someone be able to help me determine a safe starting point using Quick Load?

 

[SJB358]

That might be a deadly combo right there. I'd bet you'll get good speed out of them.

Would someone be able to help me determine a safe starting point using Quick Load?

I'm away from my computer with QL on it right now but I'm betting someone will be able to put some data up soon.

Here is what Alliant shows for a 180. Might be useful for you to get started.

 

[PJGunner]

I'm going to have to disagree with the comment that a 220 gr. bullet can only be pushed to 2150 FPS

I have an earlier copy of a one book/one caliber, the complete reloading manual for the .308 Winchester. On page 68 in the section on Winchester powders they show for W760:

Start: 42.0 gr./2177 FPS/42,000C.U.P.

Max: 44.0 gr./2295 FPS/46,900 C.U.P.

Seems to me one could go a mite higher. I did work up to the max load in a Winchester M70 with 22" barrel and got 2310 FPS which IIRC would be not too far below advertised 220 gr. 30-06 speed. Would be interesting if I could even find a box of 220 gr. 06 ammo as it seems to be scarcer than honest politicians.
I did a test a few years back with Winchester 180 gr. ammo and speeds were a full 100 FPS slower than the advertised 2700 FPS. Sure would like to get a box of 220s to run over the Chrony and see just how close the two really are.
Pressure signs with the 220 gr. .308 load were mild with primers still nice and round. Case head expansion and pressure ring measurements were normal for that rifle. The load was also tried in an 18.5" Ruger M77 RSI w velocity running at about 2230 FPS as I recall. Accuracy at 100 yards was two inches IIRC which is good for that rifle which only does 1.25" to 1.50" with it's favorite load. Again, pressures seemed to be mild. I shot these loads when it was in the low 90's FWIW.
Paul B.

 

[kraky1]

If I leave the parameters set to what actually happened with the 200 grain/RE17 chrono results and switch over to the 180 I get the following chart. Now remember we factored in the longer seating depth, the colder temp and I added .5 grains to your case capacity to get it to match what actually happened. There is another thing that sometimes happens...you were shooting virgin brass if I remember. For me often times that produces slightly slower loads than after they've been shot and resized...we may have to take away that .5 grain adjustment when you reload next time but this is a small change.

• Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
  Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
  Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.820 inch or 71.63 mm
  Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
  Powder : ? Alliant Reloder-17 ?, Temperature: 39 °F
  
  Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
  incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
  CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
  
  Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
  % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
  
  -10.0 95 43.83 2295 2105 37675 9217 93.1 1.270
  -09.0 96 44.32 2324 2158 38966 9343 93.7 1.250
  -08.0 97 44.80 2352 2211 40300 9466 94.3 1.230
  -07.0 98 45.29 2381 2266 41696 9585 94.8 1.210
  -06.0 99 45.78 2410 2321 43140 9700 95.4 1.191
  -05.0 100 46.27 2438 2377 44640 9811 95.9 1.171
  -04.0 101 46.75 2467 2433 46200 9918 96.4 1.153
  -03.0 102 47.24 2496 2491 47823 10020 96.8 1.134
  -02.0 103 47.73 2525 2549 49504 10117 97.2 1.116
  -01.0 104 48.21 2554 2607 51266 10210 97.6 1.099
  +00.0 105 48.70 2583 2667 53093 10297 98.0 1.081 ! Near Maximum !
  +01.0 106 49.19 2612 2727 54998 10379 98.3 1.064 ! Near Maximum !
  +02.0 107 49.67 2641 2788 56984 10455 98.6 1.047 ! Near Maximum !
  +03.0 108 50.16 2670 2850 59053 10527 98.9 1.030 ! Near Maximum !
  +04.0 109 50.65 2699 2912 61210 10592 99.2 1.014 ! Near Maximum !
  +05.0 110 51.14 2728 2975 63462 10651 99.4 0.997 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  
  Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
  Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  +Ba 105 48.70 2728 2975 64411 10020 100.0 0.995 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  -Ba 105 48.70 2386 2275 43234 9812 90.1 1.192

It seems to show you are going to be pretty compressed before you get into trouble.

There is a guy out there that has published what he thinks are pressure related accuracy loads based on barrel time in quickload. I'm not sure I buy that it works for all guns but surprisingly when I go back and check some of my accurate loads against his theory alot of them are very close to his "nodes" If I apply what he thinks to your 20" barrel it seems his "guesstimate" of the most accurate load with the 200 would be at 46.5 grains.
And with the 180 would be at 50.2 grains.

If I were you I'd go to the range with that published RE17 data and see what you get for a chrono reading. I have no doubts it will be safe...then we can match a step up chart from there if you are interested.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Thanks for the help. I'm going to have to get my mitts on that QuickLoad program.

Just crunching the numbers, if I compare the 46.5gr 200gr option vs the 50.2gr 180gr, using the same calculator I've been using the 180 Partition is a clear winner. At 300 yards, I'd be over 2100fps (at 40 degrees mind you), only -9.32" down at 200yd zero, and hitting around 1775ft pounds of energy. Compared to the 200 at 1932fps, -11.07" drop, and 1658ft pounds energy. Momentum (my hypothesis behind penetration and why I was looking at the 200grain in the first place) is virtual identical, with the 180 hitting with only 0.8% less than the 200 which is negligible and within a margin of error.

I'm going to try and figure out where the "lands" are in my rifle (I'm still relatively new to this) and see if I stand to gain anything by changing my col. From there, I'm going to work up loads for the 180 and see if I can get close to that 2670fps number. That could be a real winner....

 

[Guy Miner]

I've never handloaded for a Savage rifle - so I'm not sure what your magazine length is. Often in a "short action" rife, like my .308 Rem 700, there isn't much room to load out beyond a standard 2.8" cartridge. With a short action rifle, I often just load to magazine length, and call it good. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

A long-action Remington on the other hand offers all kinds of room for loading a .30-06 length cartridge real long, if necessary to get close to the lands.

Guy

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Interestingly enough, when I seated the bullet deep enough to work in the magazine, I was still having issues getting the bolt to close. A few good whacks on the back of the bolt and playing with the seating depth, I am able to close and lock the bolt (and extract the round) effortlessly at 2.882" COL. Either Savage is incredibly lucky to make the magazine take longer than the overall length from case tail to the lands, or it was well thought out.

If my bullets were previously seated at 2.820", I guess I had .062" of free bore?

With that information in mind, and considering I am shooting Partitions, is there a certain amount of free bore than has been found to give best results with Partitions? Obviously this could vary from rifle to rifle, but just wondering.

 

[kraky1]

Take a once fired case and make a "slip fit" to check you're oal to the lands. Try to squeeze the mouth down just a little bit so it has just enough tension to hold the bullet yet let it slide back into the case as you close the bolt on it. Once I have a case with the right amount of friction I keep it in my die box and it can even be pretty handy for setting your seating die.
It sounds like you have it figured out but this would be a better way to do it. In situations like you have I start at magazine length and then work my way back in .020 or .030 increments to see if there's a good sweet spot for accuracy. Sometimes you'll see a big difference and sometimes not so much. Many years ago I about wore out a 300 Weatherby ultralight until I started seating the bullets real deep and holy cow did the gun start shooting..... it went from spraying five and six inch groups at 200 yards to being under a moa.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

OK, more results. Got to the range today to shoot the 180 grain partitions with Reloder 17. I didn't go too far because I started to get a heavy bolt. I was probably getting the samy heavy feeling from the 200 grain bullets, but in this case I was already exceeding the FPS expected by both quick load and the alliant website. So I called it a day and decided to keep my face in one piece.

As a reminder:
Savage Model 10 Precision Carbine
20" Heavy Barrel, 1:10" twist.
CCI 200 Primers
Chronograph placed roughly 10-12 feet in front of the barrel.
Ambient temperature 51 degrees F.
Nosler brass (once fired and full length resized).
Bullets seated to a COAL of 2.82" (.01" over spec). About .062" jump to the lands in my rifle.

180 Grain Partitions w/ Reloder 17
Grains Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 Shot 4 Average FPS Std Dev
47.5 2643 2654 2699 2667 2665.75 20.99
48 2696 2673 2673 2662 2676.00 12.39
48.5 2705 2715 2684 2781? 2701.33 12.92

For the sake of calculating averages, I disregarded that final 2781 reading. Not sure what happened there. I probably could have shot the next group of 4 49.0 grain loadings but I was getting a heavy bolt lift and I averaged 2701fps with a 20" barrel, which was 60fps over alliant's data using .2 more grains of powder and a 2" longer barrel. 48.5 grains was the most accurate grouping for me too, with three of the four shots touching each other (granted only at 100 yards but hey it's a start). Ballistic calculator tells me at these velocities I've got 9" of drop at 300 yards with a 200 yard zero. I'm still pushing 2150fps at 300 yards which is plenty for the Partition to reliably expand.

I'm curious what Quick Load says given my results above.... I'm also curious what quick load would say the result would be if I seated it down to 2.81"...

I did manage to score a sweet deal on a 7mm Rem mag so over the year I'll be doing the same experiments with it as well. But I am very pleased with today's results.

 

[SJB358]

I like it! 180's at 2700 from a 20" carbine length 308... Nothing to not like about that.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

I like it! 180's at 2700 from a 20" carbine length 308... Nothing to not like about that.

Thanks. My old man came along to the range and we chronographed his winchester white box 180 grains at 2500fps. I'll take the 180 at 2700 over the 200 at 2425 any day. Very very happy with Reloder 17. I may try some 180 grain accubonds as well at this powder charge.

Now that being said, any word on Reloder 16? If it's faster than 17, maybe that would be worth a shot?

 

[Guy Miner]

A 180 at 2700 fps is a formidable load! That's the classic 180 gr .30-06 velocity - and at "normal" hunting ranges, it can handle most big game very well.

Nice work!

Guy

 

[kraky1]

Wow...I just caught up to the new posts. I'm pretty surprised the forecast after what happened with the 200 grains was off that much but I guess that's why we're always supposed to work up carefully. Anyhting different about this loading?

Well to get quickload to match up with the actualy chrono work I had to take away over 2 grains of case capacity. It puts the 2700 fps idea on the fringe of where you want to be I think. I usually target about 62k as a max pressure with anything in a modern bolt action just cause of wanting at least a tiny cushion.
So here is what it thinks making that adjustment.

Just curious...do you see any small extractor circles imprinted on the case?? And how do new primers feel like they go in on the brass?? Any extractor marks or loosening of the primer pocket would probably confirm a 65k+ pressure in my book.

• Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
  Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
  Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.820 inch or 71.63 mm
  Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
  Powder : Alliant Reloder-17
  
  Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
  incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
  CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
  
  Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
  % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
  
  -10.0 100 43.65 2402 2306 44341 9290 96.2 1.174
  -09.0 101 44.14 2432 2364 45973 9393 96.6 1.155
  -08.0 102 44.62 2462 2422 47675 9492 97.1 1.135
  -07.0 103 45.11 2491 2481 49450 9586 97.5 1.116
  -06.0 104 45.59 2521 2541 51300 9674 97.9 1.098
  -05.0 105 46.08 2551 2601 53230 9757 98.3 1.079 ! Near Maximum !
  -04.0 106 46.56 2581 2662 55246 9834 98.6 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
  -03.0 108 47.05 2611 2724 57350 9906 98.9 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
  -02.0 109 47.53 2641 2787 59551 9971 99.2 1.026 ! Near Maximum !
  -01.0 110 48.02 2670 2850 61853 10031 99.4 1.009 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +00.0 111 48.50 2700 2914 64261 10084 99.6 0.992 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +01.0 112 48.99 2730 2979 66782 10131 99.7 0.976 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +02.0 113 49.47 2760 3044 69423 10170 99.8 0.959 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +03.0 114 49.96 2790 3110 72191 10203 99.9 0.943 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +04.0 115 50.44 2819 3177 75099 10230 100.0 0.928 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +05.0 116 50.93 2849 3244 78152 10249 100.0 0.912 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  
  Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
  Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  +Ba 111 48.50 2828 3198 78273 9603 100.0 0.916 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  -Ba 111 48.50 2513 2523 52088 9964 94.0 1.092

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

I will have to remove the spent primers and try to reprime later tonight or tomorrow when I get home. I see no obvious signs on the brass. Primer indents seem the same as the load before it. Also worth noting is I am still .2 grains below the Alliant stated max for a 180 grain bullet using Reloder 17. Accuracy was the best of the groupings I shot. Bolt lift was a little on the heavy side but not drastically so. I will check again for extractor marks but I'm not recalling anything.

I don't know if it makes a difference but I crimp all my loads with a Lee factory crimp after seating the bullets.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

OK, decapped the primers with a RCBS universal decapping die. Primers for all three loadings (47.5, 48.0, 48.5) popped out fairly easily. No real difference noted between 47.5 and 48.5. Primer pockets were a little on the fouled-up side but a quick run through with a primer pocket brush cleaned it right up. I don't see any extractor marks on the case heads. Two of cases, when reprimed were tight while two went in fairly easily. However, two of the four 47.5 group brass were also tight while two went in easily.

As far as my limited experience, its still kind of inconclusive. I would like to just say "oh this lot of Reloder 17 is just on the hot side and drop a grain of powder" but I used the same bottle on my 200 grain Partition tests and they mirrored quick load very very closely.

I'm thinking at this point, maybe reaching out to Alliant is in order?