35 Whelen vs. 35 Whelen AI vs. 338-06

[icewaterslim]

That’s what I was hoping for, to get the hydrostatic shot up past the 300 WM, and reduce recoil at the same time.
I just bought a Mauser 98 in 8mm Mauser, with a 25 inch barrel, and I’m selling my Remington 78 Sportsman in .30-06. I wanted a little longer barrel for my rebore, and am going to rebore/rechamber the Mauser into a 35 Whelen with 3 groove rifling, and a 1 in 10 inch twist. I’m taking Scottie’s advice on that one. I want to see what that twist will do.
I’m thinking it may make the lighter weights not as accurate as the heavier bullets.


Hawk


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I'm considering a build off an M98 between 323-06 and 338-06 and hadn't started getting into reloading yet but I will. I liked the 338-06 over the whelen because of the relative bullet density but hearing from these reloaders think I'm focused on the wrong factor for Elk. Am I putting to much emphasis on sectional density? I ain't playing with any Cape Buffalo.

 

[gerry]

They all will work fine, pick the one you like the best and go from there. The 35 Whelen has the advantage of factory loads and properly head stamped brass if that matters to you. The 8mm-06 is a cool round too. There are a few guys on here that shoot that cartridge.

I'm considering a build off an M98 between 323-06 and 338-06 and hadn't started getting into reloading yet but I will. I liked the 338-06 over the whelen because of the relative bullet density but hearing from these reloaders think I'm focused on the wrong factor for Elk. Am I putting to much emphasis on sectional density? I ain't playing with any Cape Buffalo.

 

[Blkram]

I'm considering a build off an M98 between 323-06 and 338-06 and hadn't started getting into reloading yet but I will. I liked the 338-06 over the whelen because of the relative bullet density but hearing from these reloaders think I'm focused on the wrong factor for Elk. Am I putting to much emphasis on sectional density? I ain't playing with any Cape Buffalo.

The advantage of the 338-06 over the 323-06 is the availability of factory brass (Norma) and ammo (Nosler) although it is proving harder to find today. I was lucky, I built my 338-06 after Wby introduced rifles, ammo and brass for the cartridge, so have a good supply of brass and ammo (210 gr Partition). And my rifle also performs well with the 215 gr SGK bullet! (Still have try the Nosler 225 gr AB ammo I have on hand in my rifle)
The 35 Whelen has a better advantage for brass and ammo, as it has been around in factory form a lot longer.
As a non-handloader yet, this would be advantageous for you, over the 323-06, which will require forming brass, and handloading only. Once you get set up and into handloading, this will no longer be an issue for you.

As for Sectional Density for penetration, the minimum recommended for reliable penetration qualities on big game is .250. The recommendation for large, heavy, and dangerous game is .300 as set by experience of PH's in Africa on the Big 7.
An older test (mid-90's IIRC) on heavy elk shoulder bones (the densest bone of any animal in North America) proved that it took a 250 gr 338 cal bullet of sufficient velocity to reliably break the shoulder bone at its heaviest point, and reliably penetrate to the vitals with enough retained energy to destroy them for a quick kill. The best advice here, is to stay away from that heavy shoulder bone, regardless of cartridge, velocity and SD!
(I have taken a few elk with the 358 Win and the 220 gr Speer Hot-Cor at 2209 fps out of my BLR's 20" barrel; but those animals were shot at less than 100 yards where the bullet still retained in excess of 2000 ft lbs of energy, and all were taken with double lung shots that did not hit the onside shoulder. I was actually archery hunting with the BLR for back up on those hunts, and when those bulls refused to come into range, I put the bow down and used the rifle, as steaks are more important than bragging rights!)

Today, with the advanced bullet design, and better powders, bonded and/or monometal bullets of smaller calibers/lower bullet weights can now achieve this level of performance, provided they have sufficient retained velocity and energy for reliable penetration and expansion. This would require the hunter to keep shot distances to a reasonable distance, and not push the envelope too fr.
I would still recommend a SD closer to .300 end of the spectrum, as compared to the .250 end, for improved penetration capacity.
For a comparison, here are the SD numbers for the various calibers, and bullet weights you may consider in determining your final cartridge choice.

• .323": 200 gr @ .274,
• .338": 200 gr @ .250, 210 gr @ .263, 215 gr @ .269, 225 gr @ .281 and 250 gr @ .313
• .358": 200 gr @ .223, 220 gr @ .245, 225 gr @ .251, 250 gr @ .279

Hope this helps!

 

[FNWhelen]

As you can tell by my handle I am a fan of the 35 Whelen in a mauser action. One winter around the mid 70's my father loaded up a 50cal ammo box of Whelen ammo. All of it was max load of 3031 with a Hornaday 250 grain spire point. That was about all he and I used to hunt with for the next 40 years. I know there are better bullets now and with the newer powders those can be pushed faster but that does not matter much to me. The Whelen just flat out kills. Deer, caribou, moose, black bear or brown bear it does not matter. His biggest bear was a 10 footer that was a one shot kill. Shot was taken pretty close to be fair,bear was on a full charge and shot was taken at under 10 yards. Thru the skull and down the spine, done deal.

 

[Blkram]

As you can tell by my handle I am a fan of the 35 Whelen in a mauser action. One winter around the mid 70's my father loaded up a 50cal ammo box of Whelen ammo. All of it was max load of 3031 with a Hornaday 250 grain spire point. That was about all he and I used to hunt with for the next 40 years. I know there are better bullets now and with the newer powders those can be pushed faster but that does not matter much to me. The Whelen just flat out kills. Deer, caribou, moose, black bear or brown bear it does not matter. His biggest bear was a 10 footer that was a one shot kill. Shot was taken pretty close to be fair,bear was on a full charge and shot was taken at under 10 yards. Thru the skull and down the spine, done deal.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
And when it stops a 10' brown bear intent on doing one some bodily harm, at very close range, it is good to have both a rifle and ammunition in your hands that will sort it out!
Bet his ticker was beating pretty hard after that encounter!

 

[FNWhelen]

For a regular hunter and not a guide he seemed to have way more than his fair share of goat ropes with them. To the point that those who knew him called him Brown Bear. I never saw him act like he was very excited when dealing with a bear but let him get a fish on the line and he went nuts

 

[Blkram]

For a regular hunter and not a guide he seemed to have way more than his fair share of goat ropes with them. To the point that those who knew him called him Brown Bear. I never saw him act like he was very excited when dealing with a bear but let him get a fish on the line and he went nuts

Ain't it funny how certain things can trigger that type of reaction!
What might get you going, has no affect on someone else, and vice versa.

For me, when I hear that first bugle, my nerves go wild, and I can hardly set still or calm my breathing and heartrate...and yet, as soon as that bull becomes visible, I go completely calm, and can focus on the animal, aiming, the shot (rifle or bow), and the follow through...and then the adrenaline kicks in again!

 

[icewaterslim]

The advantage of the 338-06 over the 323-06 is the availability of factory brass (Norma) and ammo (Nosler) although it is proving harder to find today. I was lucky, I built my 338-06 after Wby introduced rifles, ammo and brass for the cartridge, so have a good supply of brass and ammo (210 gr Partition). And my rifle also performs well with the 215 gr SGK bullet! (Still have try the Nosler 225 gr AB ammo I have on hand in my rifle)
The 35 Whelen has a better advantage for brass and ammo, as it has been around in factory form a lot longer.
As a non-handloader yet, this would be advantageous for you, over the 323-06, which will require forming brass, and handloading only. Once you get set up and into handloading, this will no longer be an issue for you.

As for Sectional Density for penetration, the minimum recommended for reliable penetration qualities on big game is .250. The recommendation for large, heavy, and dangerous game is .300 as set by experience of PH's in Africa on the Big 7.
An older test (mid-90's IIRC) on heavy elk shoulder bones (the densest bone of any animal in North America) proved that it took a 250 gr 338 cal bullet of sufficient velocity to reliably break the shoulder bone at its heaviest point, and reliably penetrate to the vitals with enough retained energy to destroy them for a quick kill. The best advice here, is to stay away from that heavy shoulder bone, regardless of cartridge, velocity and SD!
(I have taken a few elk with the 358 Win and the 220 gr Speer Hot-Cor at 2209 fps out of my BLR's 20" barrel; but those animals were shot at less than 100 yards where the bullet still retained in excess of 2000 ft lbs of energy, and all were taken with double lung shots that did not hit the onside shoulder. I was actually archery hunting with the BLR for back up on those hunts, and when those bulls refused to come into range, I put the bow down and used the rifle, as steaks are more important than bragging rights!)

Today, with the advanced bullet design, and better powders, bonded and/or monometal bullets of smaller calibers/lower bullet weights can now achieve this level of performance, provided they have sufficient retained velocity and energy for reliable penetration and expansion. This would require the hunter to keep shot distances to a reasonable distance, and not push the envelope too fr.
I would still recommend a SD closer to .300 end of the spectrum, as compared to the .250 end, for improved penetration capacity.
For a comparison, here are the SD numbers for the various calibers, and bullet weights you may consider in determining your final cartridge choice.

• .323": 200 gr @ .274,
• .338": 200 gr @ .250, 210 gr @ .263, 215 gr @ .269, 225 gr @ .281 and 250 gr @ .313
• .358": 200 gr @ .223, 220 gr @ .245, 225 gr @ .251, 250 gr @ .279

Hope this helps!

Thank you so much for your comprehensive reply

 

[Blkram]

Thank you so much for your comprehensive reply

Any time!
Looking forward to hearing what you decide on for your chambering; 338-06 or 323-06?
And what results you get with your new rifle...