A little new to hunting

[Tom1911]

Hi longwinters,

I have lots of old reloading data that indicate 3000 FPS is easily attainable with 175 grain bullets in Remington rifles with 24" barrels.

It is very disappointing to see the neutering of the 7MM Rem Mag. I have old articles by Ken Waters, Bob Hagel, & others that list chrono'ed 175 grain 7MM Rem Mag factory ammo at or slightly over 3000 FPS. I have a book in my library on elk hunting. In it there is reference to the 7MM Rem Mag's creation as a long range elk cartridge.

I think a properly reloaded 7MM Rem Mag will hold its own against the "super" 7MM magnums. And the 175 grain bullet with its exceptional sectional density will penetrate the hell out of anything. In fact, I recall an African hunter who used 175 grain 7x57 bullets to penetrate elephant & kill elephant.

It is fun to buy new guns, and I can talk myself into a new cartridge as well as anyone. But these "super" magnums are new on the hunting scene. In the early twentieth century, all those poor hunters had were cartridges such as the .30-30, .30-'06, .303 British, 8MM Mauser, 7x57, .45/70 and other cartridges that we would now be too quick to disparage as anemic, yet all of 'em managed to kill all North American big game...including grizzly! WOW!!! And I used to hunt deer with an older gentleman who only used his 8MM Mauser on really big game.

I have a friend who has killed just about everything in North America, including griz, with a .270 Weatherby & a .300 Weatherby. Another friend who has done more magazine hunting than anything else tried to tell him that the 7MM Rem Mag was not enough gun for elk. I think you know the experienced hunter's reply!

There's an older sporting goods store in Reno off Virgina near the 395 FWY. In it is a display case containing a huge polar bear that was killed with a Browning 7MM Rem Mag!

I think most hunters know the 7MM Rem Mag is enough gun for all hunting in North America. For that matter, a .308 Win, .280 Rem, .30-'06, and most other cartridges will work just as well! Hell, I wonder how many head of really big game have been felled by the .300 Savage!


Good huntin',

Tom

 

[longwinters]

If you have that kind of budget you have a lot of potential choices. I personally would not buy a rifle knowing that you typically would have to glass bed it, free float the barrel and replace the trigger etc.... Just spend the money up front and have it done out of the box. I really like the Sako rifles, but they are not light in weight. Sako does make a light rifle, but the barrels tend to be shorter that I would prefer for the given calibers. See their website for more info. Winchester is in tough times right now, so I would not buy one until you see how things pan out for them. Weatherby rifles are excellent also and have longer, for caliber, barrels which may give you a little more velocity. For scopes pick some good glass and you will not be sorry. You may also want to get a good pair of binoculars.

Long

 

[roysclockgun]

UsSoldier wrote: "Brand is another question that comes up, I was considering, sako, Tikka, Remington, or Weatherby."

With a 2K budget we can REALLY go shopping! If you want a classic hunting rifle, find a pre-1964 Winchester Model 70. Of all the calibers made for old Model 70 rifles, 30-06 is the easiest to find and the least expensive. I'd search GunsAmerica and find a clean one. There are still some out there as new, in the box for around 1K.
For a new rifle, go Sako or maybe one of the semi-custom rifles, like Lazeroni. You can buy a Sako action or a Remington action and work with a gunsmith to design and build the rifle of your dreams. Any number of routes can be followed that will end up giving you a fine hunting rifle. Off the shelf Remington rifles are highly touted by those who hunt with them. Hard to go wrong, in terms of accuracy, as most known rifle makers are turning out accurate rifles today. Things to consider are your personal preference in: weight, barrel length, stock material, metal finish and stock finish. I like matte black rifles with plastic stocks, but that is just my personal choice. Nothing wrong with pretty, high finish rifles, save for the fact that whenever I've spotted other hunters in the field, by way of a glistening reflection, they are carrying a high finish rifle.

 

[erniec]

My vote would be for a 338-06.

Weatherby loaded it in their ultra light weight a couple of years ago.

its light weight, shoots a big bullet for bears with the right bullet can drop a dear in its tracks.

Only downfall would be long range shooting.

Good luck.

erniec

 

[roysclockgun]

erniet wrote: "My vote would be for a 338-06. "

The only issue about which I would worry, would be availabity of ammo in Alaska, or anywhere else. Unless one would handload and carry along all the ammo that would be needed, it may be difficult finding a re-supply of ammo on the hunt, or in any sort of remote area.

 

[erniec]

that is the problem with a "wildcat" even though Weatherby and A square load it.

hopefully with federal now loading a 338-08 "338 federal" they will expand into the 338-06. i know a lot of people have been lobbying them for years to load it.

It is a very popular "wildcat"

 

[roysclockgun]

Hopefully enough riflemen will pick up on your 338-06 and someone will begin to market the ammo through WalMart. As much as some folk hate WalMart, if they carry an item, it is bound to reach the ranks of great unwashed masses and become popular! <8^) Good luck
Too many fine cartridges have fallen by the wayside, simply because the attributes of the cartridges were only known to a relative few.

 

[RRIES]

AIRBORNE!! You have not lived till you bang up against a C-5 If he is still there and if you get to go to cold wx survival school. There was a Lt Col very strong Italian accent teaching cold wx survival. His gun room was the size of a small house. He is more than happy to drink a few with everyone and talk about hunting and then go shoot well prety much any calibre you want. Then go buy a rifle. Hard to go wrong with anything that has been sugested just don't go alone. Handloader magazine did a survey and that old antique 30-06 I believe was the most popular rifle that guides carried. makes ya go Hmm Also outdoorsdirectory.com seems to be a nice place too as far as Alaska.

My 2cents is with the 375HH another antique but my brother is always near with a 450 Alaskan

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I love the 300 RUM. I bought a factory Rem 700 LSS, laminated wood stock, stainless barrel. I worked on the trigger myself down to about 2.5#. I then had it glass bedded by a gunsmith. It has and will shoot .5 MOA out to 800 yards. Which means a 4 inch group. Has gave me a couple 1.5" and 2" groups at 500 yards as well. Superbly accurate caliber. I do reload, you wont get accuracy like that out of factory ammo. Good thing about reloading is you can download to say a 300 mag velocity if your not ready to step up to 300 RUM levels of recoil, but for big bears and elk, even at longer ranges, the 300 RUM loaded with a 200g AB at 3200fps is no slouch. It will flat put the smack down on one out to 1000 yards. It has the accuracy and power to do so. For 1 rifle, I would be hard pressed to give mine up. Go with something a little different is my opinion. Dont be like everyone else and get the standard 06. I never really did like the 30-06, best thing that ever happened to that cartridge was necking it down to .257" :grin:

 

[RRIES]

300RUM you have a very accurate rifle. 1000 yrds awsome. Without a dought one of the largest case capacitys in the 30cal. but you stired the pot. Lets compare that antique to the 80year newer round. Nosler reload manual 180grain Partition fastest 300RUM to the fastest 30-06. 3229fps to a meger 2872fps. With a B.C. of .361 the 300RUM at 120-130yrds is going the same speed the 06 is out the barrel. So my antique is a 870yrd smack down machine. Lets look at one more thing zero them both in at 200yrds at 300 the -06 is 2.05 lower at 400 it is 5.6 inches lower(interpolated) Oh and recoil 30% more powder hmm 30-06 continues to work w/out punishing my shoulder. It is a round that has found a happy medium. I didn't even mention barrel life or frangible old style bullets. Any way I like the 30-06

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well to give you some "realistic" numbers. Reloading manuals seem to be very conservative. I tested some 180g btips yesterday with Retumbo. I used 99g and 100g. 99g gave me 3450fps, and 100g gave me 3475fps. Extreme spreads of no more then 20fps for the 3 shot groups. However, at 300 yards where I tested the loads, they did no better then a 3 inch group and a 4 inch group. Not acceptable for me anyways. I will try 101g today since the 100g load shot 3 inch group and the 99g load shot the 4 inch group. Hopefully it will give me 3500fps with a 2 inch group. And I also get over 3200fps with 200g AB's and Retumbo. This is my velocitys over my chronograph. Might seem over the book, which it is, but it is what it is. With the 200g AB and BC of about .580, it will have some smackdown power, about 1500lbs at 1000 yards and still traveling over 1800fps. More then enough for any elk that walks this earth. When I draw my big bull tag, the elk that steps out will be sorry he did if hes not any farther then 800 yards is all I"m saying. With a 30-06 and a 180g bullet at what 2800, that doesn't make a very good long range smackdown elk load is all I'm getting at. I dont see how recoil bothers most adults. I am only 135lbs and I shoot mine w'/out a brake no problems. I get .5 MOA anyways w/out a brake so I dont see a need for one. HOwever, I guess I'm not recoil shy, or I know how to shoot heavier kicking rifles well. I guess for my style and needs of hunting/shooting, there is a lot better then the 06, and the great thing about realoading is you can download to lower velocities for recoil reasons but you still have the option of full power tilt loads is all I'm saying.

 

[RRIES]

If the manual is conservative for the 300RUM then they are probably conservative for the 30-06. I still think the 30-06 is about 150yrd less of a gun. It is still a very capable choice.
Reloading books are just guides every gun altitude temp is different. My 300 Weatherby mag will easily push past the max velocities published in Nossler manual. I allways keep my speeds close to published speeds it is the only way I can be sure my pressures are safe with out owning some exspensive equipment.
I guess I allways find myself defending old soldiers and the 30-06 is one of em. My first post shows where I stand as far as recoil and big vs little.
USsoldier Again never go alone and spend some of that money on some nice binos, You will spend hours glassing and a couple minutes shooting I have three dif sizes of binos depending on where I go.

 

[roysclockgun]

Remington2506 wrote: "Reloading manuals seem to be very conservative."..."Hopefully it will give me 3500fps with a 2 inch group."...
"smackdown power, about 1500lbs at 1000 yards"..."When I draw my big bull tag, the elk that steps out will be sorry.."..."I get .5 MOA anyways w/out a brake so I dont see a need for one. "..." I'm not recoil shy, or I know how to shoot heavier kicking rifles well.."...

Remington2506, I just have one question: Why are you playing with a whimpy 300RUM, when all your post indicate that the cartridge for a great hunter and great shot, such as yourself, is the 30-378? Be a man and use your ability to ignore recoil and overstuffed cases and shoot a real man's cartridge. The 30-378 is perfect for you!!

 

[Tom1911]

Undoubtedly, there are many great cartridges, and I am sure there is one for every individual application.

I used to be of the opinion that bigger is better, and I still believe that for self-defense against bipedal vermin. However, as I matured as a hunter, I have come to appreciate other qualities in cartridges.

I used to hunt with a guy who had an impressive trophy room. He even had a griz that he killed in Alaska. While mule deer hunting with him in a Rocky Mountain state, he provided me with an excellent practical education. He told me that when the overwhelming majority of hunters spot a buck at a great distance, they figure out how to make an excellent shot. He told me that what separated him from them is that when he spots a big buck far away, he immediately figures out a way to close the distace to ensure his buck his reduced to venison. Oh, by the way, he uses a .270 Wby Mag, more than capable of making long shots. He just prefers to make closer ones if possible.

Nearly all on my mule deer hunting used to be done with a .270 Winchester. Since I wanted to hunt elk, I bought a 7MM Rem Mag. But now I hunt with a lightweight .308 Win. With bullets up to 180 grains, it is every bit the equal of the venerable .30-'06! In fact, it holds many long distance shooting records: it short, its capacity to shoot at a great distance is greater than mine. The translation is that I probably could not benefit from "more gun." For everything in North America except really big bears that reside in Alaska, I am fine with my .308 Win.

This is not to disparage hunters who have affinity for certain calibers. Hell, I have a pronounced hankerin' for a .300 Wby Mag but for nostalgia purposes only. I probably wouldn't even hunt with it, just lock in away. So if someone wants to hunt with far more gun than I can handle, that is just fine with me! However, it is a tenuous extrapolation indeed to assume more gun translates to better hunter. In fact, I kinda admired my friend's battered .270 Wby Mag. He told me that when he bought it in South Gate, it had a nice piece of wood. When I saw it, it looked like battered furniture. But if each one of those scratches, knicks, dents could talk...

We should never lose sight of the fact that an animal with destroyed heart & lungs will be harvested regardless of caliber or distance.

 

[roysclockgun]

UsSoldier aka chris: It appears that you have gotten a lot of opiinions in answer to your question. Hopefully, being armed with some new intel will help you in your quest for a hunting rifle. As you may have guessed by the responses, many riflemen disagree on which rifle/caliber may be the finest all around hunting combo. Truth is, in the US's market driven economy, any number of brands of rifles and cartridges would fill the bill to qualify as "one rifle that can do it all". Hopefully your research will enable you to choose wisely on your first purchase, although I believe that as with many of us, you will never be satisfied with just one rifle, even if your first one can do it all! If you can view a copy of "Cartrdiges of the World", you will see that literally hundreds of centerfire cartridges have been designed, produced and marketed to cleanly take game amimals. Good luck and have fun.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

roy

There are more then enough reasons for me to not get a 30-378 weatherby. I'll list as many as I can think. First off, weatherbys are outrageously priced for what you get. Ya you get a 3 shot 1.5" guarantee, but guess what, I've not had 1 ruger with a good handload and trigger worked "not" give me at least a 1inch group at 100 yards, and thas for the ugly synthetic/stainless rifles. 2nd, there outrageously priced. For a kid that made minimum wage, I took this into consideration. 3rd, the difference between a 300 RUM and 30-378 weatherby with equal bbl lengths and equal bullet weights is roughly 100fps, so really nothing, especially for all the jacked up price of the rifle, not to mention brass, and burning 20g more powder to get that 100fps. 4th, they have a ton of freebore which can be a problem to get to shoot accurately, especially at longer ranges. 5th more long range gunsmiths will work on remingtons vs. weatherby. 6th there is tons more aftermarket goodies for model 700's. More people then not that get them big weatherby boomers think they can shoot long range, just cuz they got a "weatherby." I could tell you about a guy out at my dads work that thought he was hot shit just cuz he had a 300 weatherby and I had to put him in place with my "little" 25-06 at 500 yards. He claimed to hit a pop can with his 300 weatherby and he had no target knob scope. I know what it takes to hit small targets at longer distances, and I knew he had a regular scope. You just cant hit things that small at that distance consistently w/out holding dead on. kentucky elevation dont cut it. I told my dad to bring him out shooting with us and we set milk jugs, which are 3x the target size at 500 yards. I proceeded to hit ever jug on every shot with my 25-06 by dialing up and holding dead on with my 6-18 leupolds. Meanwhile this guys banging away and never even hit a jug, let a long a pop can. HA ha ha. Now I'm not saying I was ever the best shot, but I do know how to take cartridges to there outer limits and make them perform. All a magnum does is give someone more range, if they know how to use it. I want to turn my 300 RUM into a 7mm Allen mag or a 338 EDGE. Ever hear of those??? They knock the freaking pants off a 30-378 weatherby and are legitamite 1500 yards rifles. I guarantee I'll be posting my pics and results when I get one of these built very shortly. And yes, like I said, I am 20 years old and weight 135 lbs, 300 RUM recoil with stout 200g loads or 220g loads do not bother me. Maybe its because I've practiced enough to know its not gonna kill you when you pull the trigger. I've never let it get in my head. When I get my 7 Allen Mag or 338 EDGE, I will be getting a break. The power these cartridges produce you just cant shoot them w/out one. As far as 300 RUM goes, I'm not scared to shoot 20-30 rounds a day. In fact, I do it quite regularly.

 

[roysclockgun]

Remington2506 wrote: "...When I get my 7 Allen Mag or 338 EDGE, I will be getting a break..."

I am simply in awe of you Remington2506! You da Man! After shooting those big cartridges, you will probably need a break! May I recommend the Bahamas!

 

[RRIES]

Tom1911 you need to be quiet. How in the world are people going to sell rifles and what are we going to talk about if they find out that a 1950's calibre does everything asked of it inside of 400yrds excluding snipers. I have 3 nice Weatherbys on the wall that I brag about how fast and well they shoot a Model 71 in the 450 Alaskan to show that I have a big gun. Many 94's from 1900-1912 to show that I like old westerns. But the one that is shoved in a bag or scabbard on my horse is a 308. Oh it is only 18 inches and a peep sight. It has acounted for more than all the rest an old 270 comes close though. Should i even mention Sgt Gilland shooting that 50 yr old round and that he has the longest confirmed kill? Or even Marine Sgt Hanock.

USsoldier shoot as many rifles as you can then choose save some of that money and buy some binos a nice pack good boots and wool socks See what the old timers use. Oh if you can get your hands on one of those ruck frames for radios (has the metal fold out bottom) very nice for packin out those nice qtrd elk ,,,steaks.

 

[Tom1911]

RRies,

Yeah, I know...I do seem to have an active keyboard. :grin:

One thing I learned kinda late in my hunting career was to buy a good pair of binoculars. I finally dropped about a grand and bought a pair of Zeiss 10X binos, a very smart move on my part.

I like all my rifles, but my little .308 Win is probably my most practical. I am gonna get my son one, too! 8) I kinda like the Remington Model 7, but I'll probably go with a CZ, maybe a Sako 75. Using reduced velocity loads, I would imagine its recoil to be akin to a .243 Winchester. Then when he gets older he can use it for all his big game hunting needs. How can one beat that???

I think if I were to buy another magnum rifle for hunting use, it would most likely be a .338 Win Mag. But I am not too sure I would actually use it. I do want a .300 WBY MAG just to have one. But for hunting, espeically where I would have to carry a rifle up-and-down the Rockies, I would most assuredly grab my .308 Win.

 

[RRIES]

Some guy named Roy gave my Dad a 300WBY with my Dad's initials on it. I was given the 257. It is the nicest cleanest rifle I have. not even sure if it is broke in. It is fun to talk about not so fun to walk with. I have had very good accuracy and very small variation loading my 308 down to 30-30 loads using Speer's manual. unlike other large 30 cal cases. But I am probably telling you stuff you allready know.