Arrrrgh!!! Sometimes I hate the variables!!!

[cloverleaf]

Sometimes I hate the "variables". Below you see a target from my trip to the range yesterday. Weather was decent, minimal breeze about 40 degrees. First "group" is the string on the lower left target. Top shot was first, then working in closer to the bull. Barrele was allowed to cool for 5min or so between groups. Second group on lower right. As you can see still high and BIG. Thrid group (upper right) was five shots after lowering scope approx 1 inch 4-5 clicks. the group comes together some what but still too big.

Shooting my 250-3000 savage, Rem case, 41 grains of H4350 and 75 grain Hornady V-Max- sorry Nosler. range was 90 yards. Barrel is floated, screws seem tight.

Barrel condition- pulled a patch through soaked with gunscrubber prior to shooting, but nothing really clean.

My question is this. every time I get the barrel clean even minimally, (or just first couple shots from a dirty bore)at least the first couple shots this dumb thing takes between 3-6 shots to group decent.

The groups are poor compared to what the rifle has been capable of. Last time I loaded the v-max I used 40 grains (1 grain less) and it would reliably put those first 2 shots on top of eachother with the third landing inside the same square. Thats the only change I know of. Could that single grain of 4350 really open up the groups that far?

I guess Im just frustrated. Could this be a bedding issue? Is the barrel going south? (guess I wont know 'til I get some more 40 grain loads). Any ideas or analysis of the target.

Group sizes decreasing with subsequent shots is a pattern with this rifle.

Of course it could be ME!! Its been a long winter!! Thanks CL

Sorry for all the questions -looking for some one to help me cry in my beer...sometimes I hate the variables!!!

 

[FOTIS]

WHAT'S UP?

 

[cloverleaf]

Wish I knew- maybe its just me. Got to do some reloading to rule that out. Tempted to go the default (read dumb) route and change scopes. parralax is another possibility. CL

 

[old #7]

If the rifle shoots better with subsequent shots then maybe you have a rough throat or bore. it could be alot of things.
I have a Ruger m77 in 7mm that has taken me 8 months of shooting to finally get it under an inch.
The first thing I did was bed the recoil lug and rear tang. That brought the group down from 2.5" to 2. Then I removed the factory pressure point and floated the barell. that didn't help. I played with powders and went through 10 or more bullets from 5 manufactures to get a 1.75 inch group.
Then I bedded a 3lb pressure point back into the fore arm to get 1.5 inches.
The last thing was playing with the col, trying different primers and crimping the bullet slightly to get a more uniform ignition.
I finally shot a 3/4 group. I did notice a coalation between my group sizes and the chrony results.
I almost sold the rifle a few months ago but there is nothing like a tough project that turns out well.
Hope this helps

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Clover, this is the classic signs that your barrel is about done. A new barrel will typically take one or two fowling shots before it will decide to group. As the throat become worn, the number of fowling shot required before the rifle will group will increase. Before I rebarreled by STW the first 7 shots after cleaning would hit all four corners of a redfield target, and everything in between. The it would calm down and shoot 1/2" groups for the next 15 rounds, before widing back out again.
The Cheap solution is to see if your gunsmith can "take it back a turn". This involves cutting about 1/16" off the chamber end of the barrel, and recutting the throat. This usually costs about $150.00, but most smiths will do this for $100-$125 for a good customer. If, however, you were considering a rebarrel of this rifle, this is the excuse you've been waiting for.

 

[old #7]

I forgot to mention I also took the trigger from over 7lbs :shock: to 2.5.

I have a brand new 30-06 with under 100 rds through it that likes 5 fouling shots before it groups 5/8". The only thing I have done to that one is a trigger adjustment.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Old 7, what brand is your new 30.06?

 

[old #7]

It's a REM 700 ltd aniversary edition.
It's sweet. :grin:

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Hmm, I wouldn't expect that out of Remington. I wonder what would happen if you increased your overall length?

 

[old #7]

I am loading .01 from the lands with a 165gr AB on 62grs of RL-22 (compressed) and a cci 250 in R-P cases.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Wow, you've about run me out of theories #7 :?
I'd say try a different load, say H4985 with a Sierra bullet, but with variable's like that, it could cause a guy to trade his beer for Jack Daniels.

 

[GISMatting]

What are you shooting for? if its just a deer or antelope gun, those are just fine for groups. I'll admit that I do play with different powders and bullets before I find one I really like and is accurate, but if you've done some work with the gun and thats as good as it gets, its fine too.

 

[YoteSmoker]

If thats as good as you can get in my opinion i'd try to get the most i could get out of it.

 

[JD338]

CL,

Give us some more information-
1. Make and model of rifle?
2. How many shots through the barrel?
3. Make and model of scope and rings?
4. What loads have you shot, bullet and powder?

JD338

 

[cloverleaf]

Ok JD- More info.
The action is an FN comercial mauser (no stripper cut out). I bought the rifle from Guns America. Guy I got it from said it was part of an estate auction, so I have no history. Caliber designation is the only mark on the barrel. I would have to call it a med. heavy barrel. 5 groove I think, with a 1:10 twist. Stock is home made, Glass bedded and free floated from just forward of the chamber. Target crowned. Barrel has always seemed to have a what feels like a "rough" spot about mid bore. But if I had to guess I would say it was a relatively new barrel whenn I got it. Just too nice.

Scope is a bushnell trophy 3-9x40 in leupold rings, bases.

When I got it, the rifle was bead blasted and in the white. I have since had it blued. and floated the barrel which cured the "walking' to the right.

Hard to say how many rounds its seen. I would say, that I myself have put 200 rounds through it 3-4 at a time- it never got hot.

Posted target is for rounds using 41 grains of H4350 over a 75 grain v-max.

40 grains of the same powder under the same bullet produced my smallest groups fairly consisteintly, 3 shot clover leafs.

100 nosler BT's over 38 grains of IMR 4350 did the same at least once.

100 speer bullets seem hopeless as do any 87 grain bullets.

no luck with 4895 2-3 inch groups + dont remember what load was used.

41 gr of H 4350 over the roiginal barnes 90 grainer was good for 1 inch groups.

This may all be spring nerves. and it may be a reloading issue. I really need to go back to 40 grains of powder vs 41 and see itf groups improve.

The rifle does seem to shhot better when seated right off the lands but feeds/closes too hard so these cases were resized a little further than my best groups. I suppose that and 1 grain of powder could account for some of it.

Hower, Dad is doing my reloading and he is 300 miles away so I cant just squeeze out a couple and try 'em.

As I said its the vaiables that frustrate me...what to try next. Willl give it a good cleaning this weekend. I usually run a patch with break free on it through the bore after cleaning for protection and thought perhaps that was the problem so as I noted above this time I tried to take that out before shooting didnt seem to help.

 

[JD338]

CL,

Try some JB Bore Paste for the rough spot(s).

I would also try some different powders, RL19 and Varget would be a couple of good choices. Have your Dad load 9-10 of different charge weights for each powder so you can shoot 3 groups. pick the best shooting load and fine tune it by adjusting COL and different primers.

The other possibility is the scope. If you can't find a decent load, maybe you can try a different scope.

JD338

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Busnell Tropy scope???
Do you know how to parallax and have you done so?

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

That's check for parallax.

 

[cloverleaf]

Yes- Parallax could be a part of problem if Im checking correctly. With cross hairs on the bull, if I move my head arond behind the scope the cross hairs move on the target. Got a bonus from work this week. A VX-II is somthing Ive been thinking about for a long time. But a Nikon pro-staff is half the money. cant find the bore paste but its gotta be around some where. Kinda scared of that stuff.

 

[Guest]

Don't be scared of bore paste. It would take alot of paste, and a lot of elbow grease to do any real damage. I've used it extensively, and many of the guns I've used it on (more than once in many cases) shoot sub-moa.