Bonz, 35 Whelen AI, been gone a while.

[Bonz]

Hello gentleman, I hope you all are well. I am a prodigal son who left and is coming back home...

No place like "home" on this forum for my 35 Whelen AI. Haven't posted in a good while, but still enthusiastic about loading for my favorite round.

Been doing some work with the 200 TTSX and the 35 AI, using case head expansion with my old standby load using IMR 4064 and working one up extrapolating from the new Speer data using Power Pro Varmint.

Using new brass and light load fire formed cases (that show no CHE) as the base line, CHE with my developed load of IMR4064 was in the .0001"-.0003" range across 10 cases with an avg velocity of 2940 fps. My reference for safe CHE is .0003"-.0005".

This is a 25" bbl with fired case capacity of 77.2 gr H2O.

Next up was to work up with Power Pro Varmint and the 200 TTSX. Following the same process, I got .0001"-.0003" CHE on most cases with the top load I worked up to, however it pushed up to .0005" on a few of the cases. I called that a max load for my rifle, avg velocity was 3030 fps.

Traditional pressure signs showed no issues, however adding CHE to the mix was something I have wanted to do for a while now. It's not a revelation that newer powders are upping the game for some really great cartridges. Happy I took the time to step out of the "old standby load" comfort zone and work up a new load for my favorite gun and cartridge.

 

[Bonz]

Thanks for the likes, what's this trophy apparently given because "Somebody likes you"? Like a participation ribbon for showing (back) up? Makes a guy feel all warm.

 

[truck driver]

If you can find someone to tweak Quick load to your loads from the chrono readings you can get max velocity out of the 35 AI at 64K psi. I had a friend tune my CFE 223 loads this way and it was amazing what that cartridge and powder combo could do.
My secret ingredient for my loads was a stash of WLP primers designed for standard and magnum loads. Never tried to duplicate my findings with regular large rifle magnum primers.

 

[Bonz]

Hi TD, good to see you again. I have a well-established velocity for the IMR4064 load with the 200 TTSX. How does velocity get added to the QL equation to "back in" to a load as you described? I have a velocity for Power Pro Varmint (PPV) as well, but since Accurate Powders aren't in the QL data base, it's a moot point.

What I've come to know as (yes) I get older... throwing heavier charges with a 200 Gr bullet to get another 100 fps doesn't do it for me, other than the joy of finding that load. A 200 Gr .358 TTSX at 2940 fps has the nuts to pretty much take care of any business I will ever encounter. PPV and the 200 TTSX was a lot of fun to work up to using case head expansion as there is no PPV data for the 200 TTSX. As said above, I used the newer Speer data, extrapolated a starting load and ended up at 3030 fps.

Speer data shows PPV trumping CFE 223 with the lighter bullets, so even though I have some CFE223, spent the time with PPV and was pretty happy.

Any thoughts as to your choice of CFE223 vs PPV (unless it wasn't available) to make your stand with, so to speak?

 

[SJB358]

I was just talking about you with a friend a few weeks back. I’d remembered how well you’d done with the 200 TSX and TTSX. I copied your bullet choice for my latest Whelen with a 22” barrel and was happy as a lark to get 2900 with 8208. I didn’t get to hunt it this year but I’m planning to have the rifle up and ready soon as I can find some more of the danged bullets. Talk about tough to find.

Welcome back! Great to see you posting again.

This was what I came up with and I can’t see anything doing much better and 8208 is darned stable for temps so I’m hoping to find more of it.

 

[hunter24605]

Sheesh, that’s impressive! I can’t see much, if anything, making that better!

 

[RL338]

I was just talking about you with a friend a few weeks back. I’d remembered how well you’d done with the 200 TSX and TTSX. I copied your bullet choice for my latest Whelen with a 22” barrel and was happy as a lark to get 2900 with 8208. I didn’t get to hunt it this year but I’m planning to have the rifle up and ready soon as I can find some more of the danged bullets. Talk about tough to find.

Welcome back! Great to see you posting again.

This was what I came up with and I can’t see anything doing much better and 8208 is darned stable for temps so I’m hoping to find more of it.

I really would like to try those 200gr TTSX , but they’re nonexistent.

 

[Bonz]

Nice work with 8208 XBR. That accuracy is worth a million bucks.

I've spent some time over on the Rokslide forum. Different folks there, more interested in shooting animals at long distance vs. hunting them but they have put me on to the Hammer line of copper mono bullets. I picked up a box (50) of the 200 gr Power Hammers to give a try in the 35 AI. Plenty of reports and they seem like a good hunting bullet by most counts. All their .358 bullets are in stock as best I can tell, here's a link.

Main thing I have heard is they are easy to develop a load with respect to accuracy.

A bit more cost than Barnes, but no Barnes to be found kinda makes it an easy choice if you are out of the TTSX. I would take a look at this link (pay attention to the recommended twist rates) and not hesitate to give some a try. They sell sample packs as well.

.358 Archives - Hammer Bullets

hammerbullets.com

FWIW, I got a Midway alert shortly before Christmas that the 180 TTSX was in stock so picked up a couple boxes to go with the box I already had.

Down to one full box of 200 TTSX and 7 left in the other box. Those alone would/will last a long time for hunting purposes now that my go-to load is well established and I've worked up a new load with Power Pro Varmint as described in this thread. Next up is the 200 gr Hammer and the 180 TTSX this spring.

To be real, 2940 fps (25" bbl, 35 AI) with a 200 gr TTSX easily could cover hunting big bears as well as the pile of deer and elk it has gotten thus far. And upping to over 3000 fps with PPV was icing on the cake to show how dang competent the 35 Whelen or 35 AI is as an all around gun out to 450 yds or more.

I've been paying more attention to impact velocity as it relates to expansion. The 200 TTSX at 3000 fps carries 2000 fps to the 450 yard line at 2000' elevation. At 8000' it makes it to 570 yards carrying just over 2000 fps.

And that frontal area of the 35 caliber bullet... The two Barnes X's (an original 200 gr X and 250 X) I have recovered from elk measure around .736" diameter across the widest part of the petals.

 

[SJB358]

Great stuff buddy. I am also a fan of the Hammers. The 220's at 2800 pulled together real quick for me.

You're right, the Hammer's are available and they are great to speak with!

 

[preacher]

I can vouch that the old second version of the Barnes 200X ( it had a secant ogive) was as wicked as the 250X in the 35 Whelen AI I had. I got 2970fps (not trying to "one up you" Bonz!) I took a Black Wildebeest at 347yds, a zebra at 250yds, no recovery. I was using H322, but admittedly, my pressures were high. I found it ran right with my 338WM. Later, I only needed 1/2 grain more to get 2950 (same bughole accuracy though) with the 200 TTSX. Thats back when you could buy them most anywhere though, ha.

 

[truck driver]

Hi TD, good to see you again. I have a well-established velocity for the IMR4064 load with the 200 TTSX. How does velocity get added to the QL equation to "back in" to a load as you described? I have a velocity for Power Pro Varmint (PPV) as well, but since Accurate Powders aren't in the QL data base, it's a moot point.

What I've come to know as (yes) I get older... throwing heavier charges with a 200 Gr bullet to get another 100 fps doesn't do it for me, other than the joy of finding that load. A 200 Gr .358 TTSX at 2940 fps has the nuts to pretty much take care of any business I will ever encounter. PPV and the 200 TTSX was a lot of fun to work up to using case head expansion as there is no PPV data for the 200 TTSX. As said above, I used the newer Speer data, extrapolated a starting load and ended up at 3030 fps.

Speer data shows PPV trumping CFE 223 with the lighter bullets, so even though I have some CFE223, spent the time with PPV and was pretty happy.

Any thoughts as to your choice of CFE223 vs PPV (unless it wasn't available) to make your stand with, so to speak?

 

[truck driver]

Hi Bonz, sorry it has taken so long for me to respond since life keeps getting in my way for doing things that are fun.
As for the technique to calibrate QL to get the most out of the ladder runs form the chrony velocity I can't tell you since I don't know. I don't own QL and have never played with it. A friend who was great at using QL could tweak the settings and get the most accurate powder weight predictions out of it, unfortunately he left the forum after getting a new job and he won't run predictions using QL for me since he lost interest in doing it.
We had a wild ride together developing my loads for my rifle.
What I learned was that once you reach maximum velocity for your cartridge in your rifle you will see diminishing returns as you increase the powder charge and you have to back off till you see minimum group size which should be your most accurate load.
Not all rifle barrels are created equal. I got lucky when JES bored my barrel and I had to send it back for him to make the chamber throat longer to meet my desired length. I also had a stash of old Winchester primers that were made for standard and magnum loads that were the secret of my maximum loads, even though I tried different primers, standard and magnum from different brands the velocities couldn't be duplicated except with those primers so when they are gone so will the loads we developed for them.
I never got into the mono metal bullets since when I tried them they seemed to produce average results for me and fouling was more then I wanted to work with since I spent more time cleaning then shooting.

 

[Bonz]

I can vouch that the old second version of the Barnes 200X ( it had a secant ogive) was as wicked as the 250X in the 35 Whelen AI I had. I got 2970fps (not trying to "one up you" Bonz!) I took a Black Wildebeest at 347yds, a zebra at 250yds, no recovery. I was using H322, but admittedly, my pressures were high. I found it ran right with my 338WM. Later, I only needed 1/2 grain more to get 2950 (same bughole accuracy though) with the 200 TTSX. Thats back when you could buy them most anywhere though, ha.

Lol on the one-up... I believe mine were the secant ogive as well, like the tip goes straight back, per se, to the shank.

They help give the Whelen ranging ability way above what most folks not in the know believe.

 

[gerry]

Great stuff buddy. I am also a fan of the Hammers. The 220's at 2800 pulled together real quick for me.

You're right, the Hammer's are available and they are great to speak with!

Hi Scotty, what powder did you use for the Hammer's? They are on my list to try sometime this year.

 

[Bonz]

Fwiw, I loaded a series with Alliant Power Pro varmint under the 200 grain Power Hammers but haven't been to the range yet. I worked up to 3030 fps with that powder and the 200 TTSX without undue case head expansion (but not going to push it more) as posted at the beginning of the thread.

If I was going with the 220 gr Hammers, I would look at Power Pro Varmint there too. Best velocity with 220 gr bullets in the newest Speer data from a few years back. Power Pro 2000-MR or CFE 223 would be good second choices as well.

 

[gerry]

I have CFE 223, IMR 8208, H 4895 and RL 15 for powders. I saw that Speer data, that's why I grabbed some CFE 223 when it became available here. Saving it for 225's and 250's. @Bonz I use the 200 gr TTSX as well, was thinking of the Hammer's around that weight too along with the 220 gr bullets. Have you seen much difference between the Power Hammer and Shock Hammer lines?

 

[SJB358]

Hi Scotty, what powder did you use for the Hammer's? They are on my list to try sometime this year.

I used PP2000 with those Gerry. Worked pretty well and speed came pretty easily. I don't think PP2000 is necessarily any better than what you have listed though, just what I wanted to use that day.



I'd like to have a bigger stash of 8208 to be totally honest!

 

[SJB358]

I have CFE 223, IMR 8208, H 4895 and RL 15 for powders. I saw that Speer data, that's why I grabbed some CFE 223 when it became available here. Saving it for 225's and 250's. @Bonz I use the 200 gr TTSX as well, was thinking of the Hammer's around that weight too along with the 220 gr bullets. Have you seen much difference between the Power Hammer and Shock Hammer lines?

I have maybe said it before, but H's Leverevolution might be GREAT in the Whelen as well. From about every piece of data I have seen it is within a grain of CFE223, so I'd be adventurous enough to try it, if you could get it or have it on hand. It has worked really well in alot of similar applications.

 

[gerry]

Thanks Scotty, I grab IMR 8208 every time I see it and use it exclusively in my Whelen. Tried others but it works well for me. I bought that CFE 223 for when we get our grizzly season back to use with 225's and 250's. To be honest the 200 gr TTSX and from what I have read the equivalent Hammer bullets would work for anything in North America easily. Fun to experiment though!

 

[SJB358]

Thanks Scotty, I grab IMR 8208 every time I see it and use it exclusively in my Whelen. Tried others but it works well for me. I bought that CFE 223 for when we get our grizzly season back to use with 225's and 250's. To be honest the 200 gr TTSX and from what I have read the equivalent Hammer bullets would work for anything in North America easily. Fun to experiment though!

I hope to try them this year. 8208 and 200 TTSX's simply shoot amazing in this Whelen Gerry, at a steady 2900. I can't even find a good reason to mess with anything else, other than my supply of 8208 is limited!