bullet performance on big game discussion
- Thread starter lhsako
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Divernhunter
Handloader
- Apr 1, 2009
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Bullet placement.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,418
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Divernhunter":11ac39b6 said:
Bingo!
truck driver
Ammo Smith
- Mar 11, 2013
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Your question was answered with the first post, placement is everything.
I think the OP is assuming placement, and looking for what is most important when placement is not optimal (broadside or quartering away) either due to animal position or shooter error. I don't have much personal experience in the larger game department. I have shot 2 moose when I worked for the conservation department, but they were both brain stem shots to prevent the animal from moving at all using a State Police 7.62 rifle with 168 BTHPs. I'll let some of the experienced Moose, Elk, Africa crowd chime in on this one.
lhsako":n6ufao18 said:
For me, placement is always going to be number 1. Beyond that, I’ll take wide, flat expansion that retains enough mass to make it to the far side of a quartering animal. Thus far, BBC, ACCUBONDS, Swift Sciroccos, Partitions and larger caliber TSX’s have worked well for me. I used to believe penetration was paramount, but these days I’ll take expansion and typically Bonded Bullets to get my work done.
Lets address this on a wider perspective. I think bullet performance and placement go hand and hand. A few years back I pulled a 7 mm RM out of the gun safe and developed a sub MOA load with a popular bullet and took off to the woods after elk. I had used a similar bullet a few years earlier and had not been entirely happy with the performance, but I thought I would give in another chance. After several shots (all good hits) were required to dispatch two different elk. I discarded those bullets and between elk seasons, spent a week developing a decent load with 160 gr AB's and dispatched a nice young bull with one shot. The last three years here in the SW I have been calling coyotes in my spare time. After failing to recover several well hit, I switched to a PSP bullet and have recovered three in a row. One which did run about 50 yards, but leaving a great blood trail all of the way.
So while shot placement is critical, if the bullet does not do its job, its very likely you will go home empty handed. A 30 cal hole though an elk is just that a hole, and given the right temperament (they are hardy little buggers) , and the right country you will most likely have nothing to show for your hard work. Nothing works perfect, I was unable to recover a well hit bull last hit with a 160 AB screaming along at fairly close range. The terrain was in the elks favor and after a short slide, he was out of my sight and apparently on his feet for his last dash. Where he went I do not know but I do know that a 1/4 mile laterally in that terrain, equates to several hundred feet elevation change.
I believe that a bullet that expands and gives you great penetration will make up for the less than perfect shot. We all know that the perfect shot occurs infrequently, and the wrong bullet is not going to make them any better
So while shot placement is critical, if the bullet does not do its job, its very likely you will go home empty handed. A 30 cal hole though an elk is just that a hole, and given the right temperament (they are hardy little buggers) , and the right country you will most likely have nothing to show for your hard work. Nothing works perfect, I was unable to recover a well hit bull last hit with a 160 AB screaming along at fairly close range. The terrain was in the elks favor and after a short slide, he was out of my sight and apparently on his feet for his last dash. Where he went I do not know but I do know that a 1/4 mile laterally in that terrain, equates to several hundred feet elevation change.
I believe that a bullet that expands and gives you great penetration will make up for the less than perfect shot. We all know that the perfect shot occurs infrequently, and the wrong bullet is not going to make them any better
c. schutte
Handloader
- Jan 24, 2012
- 578
- 0
It can't be just one................... that is quick expansion without penetration is no good and all the penetration in the world without expansion won't be near as effective. To that end I'm a believer that a bonded bullet that will expand greater than 2x while keeping most of it's weight will kill more effectively. And as the saying goes, the bigger the better.
For me I like a bullet that will do that and make it to the far side for any quartering shot. Maintain straight line penetration expanding to the order of 2.3 or better. I like me some bonded bullets for this job. :>)
For me I like a bullet that will do that and make it to the far side for any quartering shot. Maintain straight line penetration expanding to the order of 2.3 or better. I like me some bonded bullets for this job. :>)
A
Anonymous
Guest
Several folks here have hit the nail on the head.
Assuming good placement, I want a bullet that will expand and hold on to weight and punch clear through. Relatively soft bullets are pretty good on deer- fast expansion and a piece left big enough to carry through. For larger animals, some form of bonding or Partition that ensures retained weight is pretty desirable.
I've been using the AccuBond a lot the last 13 years or so. Good accuracy, good expansion without fragmentation or shedding the core, and a big bloody exit wound. Nothing takes more than a couple of steps before going down. In my book, the AB gives bullet performance that's pretty tough to beat. I've never lost an animal hit with one...for that matter, everything has died pretty much where it got shot so I more accurately could say I never even tracked an animal hit well with one.
I don't think you need that kind of bullet for a deer, but on caribou, moose, bears, and elk...it gives me an extra measure of confidence on shots that might be a tough angle.
Assuming good placement, I want a bullet that will expand and hold on to weight and punch clear through. Relatively soft bullets are pretty good on deer- fast expansion and a piece left big enough to carry through. For larger animals, some form of bonding or Partition that ensures retained weight is pretty desirable.
I've been using the AccuBond a lot the last 13 years or so. Good accuracy, good expansion without fragmentation or shedding the core, and a big bloody exit wound. Nothing takes more than a couple of steps before going down. In my book, the AB gives bullet performance that's pretty tough to beat. I've never lost an animal hit with one...for that matter, everything has died pretty much where it got shot so I more accurately could say I never even tracked an animal hit well with one.
I don't think you need that kind of bullet for a deer, but on caribou, moose, bears, and elk...it gives me an extra measure of confidence on shots that might be a tough angle.
Thebear_78
Handloader
- Sep 30, 2004
- 3,098
- 870
I tend to group bullets by velocity windows. There really is no perfect bullet for all velocities. The AccuBond and Partition comes as close to perfectvall around as you can find.
For slower rounds, say under 2700fps when used on general big game most any old conventional bullet will get the job done.
2700-3000fps you need to step up to a bonded bullet, or at least one with a mechanical jacket lock, Partition or a frame.
3000+ is the realm on tough bonded bullets and mono metals. The e-tip and TSX or TTSX really come into their own in this velocity window. Generally stepping down 15-20% in bullet weight vs conventional bullets.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For slower rounds, say under 2700fps when used on general big game most any old conventional bullet will get the job done.
2700-3000fps you need to step up to a bonded bullet, or at least one with a mechanical jacket lock, Partition or a frame.
3000+ is the realm on tough bonded bullets and mono metals. The e-tip and TSX or TTSX really come into their own in this velocity window. Generally stepping down 15-20% in bullet weight vs conventional bullets.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Thread starter
- #12
Of course bullet placement is paramount ! My preparation has always been focused on worst case scenarios that may be encountered in the field. Quartering shots on moose. elk etc.
my testing was done using Hagel's bullet recovery box. A real pain but I have found it more closely reflects how bullets perform on game.
In regards to penetration, frontal area, while retaining more weight, tended to thwart penetration. (bonded bullets) .
In contrast, the all copper bullets gave the most penetration w/ reduced wound cavity size naturally. the Partition not surprisingly fell in the middle. large initial wound cavity followed by reasonable penetration.
All these styles kill effectively but differently. In many cases it comes down to which shoots best in your weapon and personal confidence.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/ ... artial.pdf
my testing was done using Hagel's bullet recovery box. A real pain but I have found it more closely reflects how bullets perform on game.
In regards to penetration, frontal area, while retaining more weight, tended to thwart penetration. (bonded bullets) .
In contrast, the all copper bullets gave the most penetration w/ reduced wound cavity size naturally. the Partition not surprisingly fell in the middle. large initial wound cavity followed by reasonable penetration.
All these styles kill effectively but differently. In many cases it comes down to which shoots best in your weapon and personal confidence.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/ ... artial.pdf
lhsako":15ydur4b said:
Well said, these days I shoot a bunch of BBCs cause I’ve got them and they seem to plant animals real well. The Scirocco is a darned sleeper and as near a BBC I’ve found for wide flat expansion along with a BC advantage. I can’t imagine any of the great premiums letting me down though. It is nice to test them a little before putting them into an animal and have reasonable certainty of what is going into flesh.
Hagel is the darned reason I’m so fond of these Bitterroots... from all I read he raved about them. Over the past few years of using them I see why now.
- Thread starter
- #14
>>> me too! I actually called bob and discussed the BBC and the bullet recovery box. ...lolSJB358":2pwtjgqe said:
also talked w/ bill stiegers of bitterroot. his method pf paying for shipment involved sending him books of stamps to pay the postage when you ordered the bulllets. the BBC just never shot well for me.... are they back in production or are you finding old stock?
- Thread starter
- #15
lhsako":2wwatfet said:
They are old stock. Ones I’ve picked up a 100 here, 40 here. Getting a decent pile of them now. I’ve never shot a group with a BBC. Up to this point I’ve use a same weight Partition and once it shot the best I just match the average speed with the BBC. Out to 500 they’ve been spot on. This year I’m using the Woodleighs and BBCs from my 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum.
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
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lhsako":2oorwquk said:
Perhaps since I normally hunt mule deer, I prefer the fast expansion of the Ballistic Tip.
Expansion, even some fragmentation of the front of the bullet seems to produce very quick kills time after time.
Penetration has always been adequate, even with the little 25 caliber, 115 and the 6mm 95 grain Ballistic Tip bullets. The 30 caliber, 165 gr Ballistic Tip has that same dramatic expansion, yet retains enough bullet mass for excellent penetration even on larger species.
When I've used the Partition, I've also noted that the front of the bullet expands very rapidly, and even breaks off pieces of bullet. Then that famous rear section of the bullet keeps pushing through.
It's interesting here on the forum, because there's an awful lot of hunting experience among us.
Guy
- Thread starter
- #18
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,806
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BTW - I think weight retention is very over-rated...
Tissue destruction, of vital organs. That's what I'm after. Enough penetration to get in there to the heart & lungs, maybe even breaking some bones. But honestly, I don't really care what the bullet weighs once it's killed the animal. It just needs enough mass to get in there and destroy important parts.
Guy
Tissue destruction, of vital organs. That's what I'm after. Enough penetration to get in there to the heart & lungs, maybe even breaking some bones. But honestly, I don't really care what the bullet weighs once it's killed the animal. It just needs enough mass to get in there and destroy important parts.
Guy
