Cutting Edge Bullets Recovered

[FOTIS]

I talked to Daniel (the Prez) and I sent him the link to this.

The raptors will open up at 1600 fps.

As far as the others (MTH) they are reworking the hollow point size/depth for the smaller cals to ensure expansion.

 

[IdahoCTD]

I just talked to them a bit ago about it too. They said the larger calibers have much deeper hollow points and don't perform like these.

 

[FOTIS]

Yup ditto!

 

[Elkman]

Those bullets are worthless to hunters. Personally, if the difference in B.C. alone determines whether or not I hit the animal, then I need to get closer.

Short and to the point, I agree and like that comment!!!

 

[FOTIS]

Got this from Daniel:

Fotis,



I got to thinking about this some more and we need to be very careful how aggressive we make these bullets. The picture of the recovered bullet is from an elk shot at 75 yards with a 300WSM right around 3000fps. The picture of the heart is the damage that bullet did. Right now the bullets act similar to a Partition with the top portion blowing off creating a large amount of damage while the base remains a solid for penetration. I would not want to see less than 75% weight retention once the top portion blows off or penetration will suffer. The copper we use is definitely more brittle but softer than gilding metal so it is more likely that the tip will blow off in pieces than a gilding metal bullet would. I do not think that is a bad thing since it is going to happen internally which causes a lot of trauma but they are not going to look like a perfectly mushroomed Barnes if one is recovered. We have never had an issue killing animals quickly with these bullets and as I mentioned they are more like a Partition than a Barnes. The main difference between ours and a Nosler Partition is the copper does not pulverize like lead and the pieces are larger going through the internals.

People are eager to think what they see is a failure but in reality I think it is a benefit but nobody posts that kind of thing.

I just thought I would elaborate on the terminal performance issue a little.



Thanks

 

[IdahoCTD]

I talked to Dan for about an hour this morning. He said that the hollow point should be deeper to stabilize the bullet better when it opens. The nose being small after it tore off is why it most likely tumbled. The non aggressive bullets in 7 and 30 are the ones with the shallow hollow point. Like he told Fotis in the email, the copper is really soft and very well may tear off but it's inside the animal when it does it and tends to cause a lot of trauma. He also said they like to see closer to 75% weight retention for straighter penetration and less chance of tumbling. If you compare the picture Fotis posted versus the one I did you can see that more of the nose profile is missing on the picture Fotis posted. I'm not sure what the recovered weight was of the bullets I posted pictures of but he guessed closer to 90% which was too much. I also found out a lot about what they do to get them to shoot well as far as how to seat them and that they generally like to be loaded hot.

As a side note I may have them make some brass bullets profiled like the larger/heavier high BC copper bullets in .338 and .375 (maybe even .416) to try and get a BC nearly as high as the copper bullets but much lighter in weight. That way you can shoot them faster and have less recoil. The faster part will over come the slight loss in BC to reasonable ranges. Ideally they will perform like the NonCon's and Raptors on game but be better for long range.

Fotis,

If you want in on this action I need to order 250 bullets but I have no idea of the cost/bullet. I think the .375 bullets will weigh close to the 230gr Raptors but have a BC closer to the 300gr MTH bullets. It would make bucking the high Wyoming winds easier :wink: . A .750BC bullet at 3300fps would be pretty cool. You'd get Cheytac type performance from the smaller Lapua/Weatherby cases.

 

[Elkman]

I have one recovered Barnes TSX, (from two elk) that look very much like the picture FOTIS, posted. The TSX shoots the most accurately of any bullet in my STW. I use the Nosler PT as my primary bullet.

 

[joelkdouglas]

I have one recovered Barnes TSX, (from two elk) that look very much like the picture FOTIS, posted. The TSX shoots the most accurately of any bullet in my STW. I use the Nosler PT as my primary bullet.

Same here--haven't tried anything but Partitions and Accubonds as backups in my rifle with new barrel. I've put quite a few Partitions down a new tube this spring to get them shooting dependably like I want. I figured if I just couldn't get the Partitions to shoot I could use the Accubonds instead.

I know other people have good experiences with the TTSX and others, but if I'm looking through my scope at a 350 bull elk, the bullet I want in the case is a Partition.

 

[FOTIS]

Nathan I am in!

 

[bullet]

All very interesting indeed. Yep, causes a man to think (I am not say what it caused me to think) but I am staying with the Partition and AccuBond, yep, that is what I was thinking. :mrgreen:

 

[IdahoCTD]

I got my .375 Krieger barrel today so I guess I better order the reamer. I don't know how far out the action is but I don't want to hold things up. I've got some 350gr SMK's coming too.

 

[bullet]

I got my .375 Krieger barrel today so I guess I better order the reamer. I don't know how far out the action is but I don't want to hold things up. I've got some 350gr SMK's coming too.

Good bullet, very good for the 375, outstanding in my 375Wby

 

[IdahoCTD]

Nathan I am in!

Do you know what twist rate your .378 barrel is? That will dictate how aggressive we can go. My barrel is a 10 twist so it will handle about anything within reason. The tip will most likely be rather long to shorten the bullet enough to get it to expand right. The other option is to put a small hole like from a 7mm or 30cal and run a shorter tip.

 

[boom stick]

I just got some of their NonCon and Raptor bullets to try.

I was a little disappointed in the BC of the Raptors. I was hoping they would shape them more like the MTH bullets. The good thing about brass is it is lighter so you can get the same BC with a lighter bullet that can be driven faster and has less recoil. The performance is suppose to be phenomenal with the NonCon's though.

The Raptors will be good for 400 to 600 yards depending on starting velocity. That should be good of 98% of hunting. Knowing your velocity and BC it's pretty easy to figure out your functional impact distance since 1,600 FPS is the floor for shearing of the petals. If you need more BC the the MTH bullets work for that. The Raptors are light and fast but should not be underestimated in terms of lethality. There are some good necropsy pics on accurate reloading for Raptors and non cons. When you hunt with these I hope you post the reports.

 

[FOTIS]

Nathan I am in!

Do you know what twist rate your .378 barrel is? That will dictate how aggressive we can go. My barrel is a 10 twist so it will handle about anything within reason. The tip will most likely be rather long to shorten the bullet enough to get it to expand right. The other option is to put a small hole like from a 7mm or 30cal and run a shorter tip.

1:12 Krieger match
378 WBY

 

[FOTIS]

I just got some of their NonCon and Raptor bullets to try.

I was a little disappointed in the BC of the Raptors. I was hoping they would shape them more like the MTH bullets. The good thing about brass is it is lighter so you can get the same BC with a lighter bullet that can be driven faster and has less recoil. The performance is suppose to be phenomenal with the NonCon's though.

The Raptors will be good for 400 to 600 yards depending on starting velocity. That should be good of 98% of hunting. Knowing your velocity and BC it's pretty easy to figure out your functional impact distance since 1,600 FPS is the floor for shearing of the petals. If you need more BC the the MTH bullets work for that. The Raptors are light and fast but should not be underestimated in terms of lethality. There are some good necropsy pics on accurate reloading for Raptors and non cons. When you hunt with these I hope you post the reports.

My 378 will take me to 1200 yards with the raptor still doing over 1600 FPS----theoretically!

 

[IdahoCTD]

Fotis,

At the velocity you got with the Raptors, if we could get the BC to .750, you'd be over 1600 to over a mile at 6000+ feet of elevation. That's impressive. Not that I'd shoot an animal that far but it would be fun shoot it that far at steel or a target. 2700+ pounds of energy at 1000yds.

 

[FOTIS]

That is what I am talking about! :mrgreen: