fillers

[Antelope_Sniper]

I don't like any kind of a load that required a filler other then gunpowder. If I want a low velocity load, I just use a slower powder. Since I have plenty of WC860, WC872, and even some IMR5010, I usually have something slow enough for the intended purpose.

 

[DrMike]

I don't like any kind of a load that required a filler other then gunpowder. If I want a low velocity load, I just use a slower powder.

+1

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

I have actually never used filler. My CL bullet powder of choice is IMR 4227 which while it doesnt fill the case, there is still plenty of it in there to not worry about poor ignition and I still get excellent accuracy out of my CL bullets. Shooting some 160 grain Lyman FN that my Grampa casted, lubed, sized, and checked for me. They are a lot cheaper practice ammo.

I imagine I am getting somewhere around 1850-1900 fps at the muzzle. I haven't clocked them yet but this powder burns good and no fillers! :grin:

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

That's what I would do.
Post some details about what you are working on.
I"ll run a QL and see what looks promising.

 

[Guest]

So I guess I could use a slower powder to fill the case. Sounds like a winner.

Yes, to a degree. There is the danger of too slow a powder not getting pressure enough to properly seal the brass against the chamber wall, creating sooty cases or perhaps blowback. If you're looking for reduced loads for cast bullets, Hodgdon advises that for cast bullets (only) H4895 can be reduced to 60% of the published maximum charge for any given bullet weight, where they list charges with H4895. Further, many manuals list "cast bullet loads" and the Lyman manual has a good selection of these. One can also use IMR TrailBoss for reduced loads. There's a method listed on the Hodgdon website (they market IMR now) as to how to figure your charge weights for TrailBoss. Be aware that TB loads are going to be DRAMATICALLY reduced loads in terms of velocity and pressure. Like to the tune of half or less of the normal velocity for the cartridge. The beauty is, though, that the powder is very high bulk (low energy density) so the case will be near full with those velocities/loads. It's another great way to start youngsters out. I'm thinking of getting some 150gr cast bullets for my 30-30 and loading them up over TrailBoss for my son to get to shoot it. Should have about 5lbs recoil. If he balks at the youth loads in his 270WSM, that's the direction I'm going.

 

[JD338]

I have never used any fillers. IMHO, too much risk of inconsistent loads.
I agree with using a slower powder.

JD338

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

MBN, what kind of velocities are you looking for?
Even with a hard lead bullet I assume you want to keep these down around what, 2200?

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

This should get you in the ball park:

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Muzzle Velocity: 2000 fps or 609 m/s
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
ADI AP 2214 85.5 54.2 3.51 2000 71.4 20912 7109 1.824
Norma MRP 2 88.8 54.2 3.52 2000 72.2 19206 7602 1.905
Accurate 2495 63.6 36.7 2.38 2000 96.7 19397 6937 2.000
ADI AR 2213 79.5 49.1 3.18 2000 72.7 20277 7055 1.844
Somchem S365 73.4 44.6 2.89 2000 87.8 18335 7410 1.940
IMR 7828 SSC 79.0 49.6 3.21 2000 72.2 20077 7150 1.854
IMR 7828 83.5 49.6 3.21 2000 72.2 20077 7150 1.854
Alliant Reloder-19 75.7 46.2 2.99 2000 77.1 19914 6962 1.862
Hodgdon H4831 SC 78.6 48.5 3.14 2000 74.3 20577 6828 1.833
Hodgdon H4831 81.7 48.5 3.14 2000 74.3 20577 6828 1.833
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 76.5 46.7 3.03 2000 77.2 19999 6942 1.859
Rottweil R905 81.4 49.3 3.20 2000 73.6 19825 7088 1.870
Alliant Reloder-22 79.7 49.2 3.19 2000 75.4 19277 7318 1.895
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 79.7 49.2 3.19 2000 75.4 19277 7318 1.895
Raufoss RA15 79.7 49.2 3.19 2000 75.4 19277 7318 1.895
Vihtavuori N560 79.5 49.6 3.21 2000 71.8 19503 7298 1.884
Accurate MAGPRO 81.5 52.9 3.43 2000 69.7 19531 7361 1.888
Accurate 4064 68.4 39.0 2.53 2000 94.0 19424 7002 1.985
Norma MRP 78.4 50.0 3.24 2000 76.2 18906 7556 1.914
Winchester WXR 81.8 49.4 3.20 2000 75.2 19309 7309 1.894
Winchester Supreme 780 77.6 50.0 3.24 2000 77.6 20260 6914 1.851
Somchem S385 77.4 47.8 3.10 2000 79.5 19516 7051 1.899
Vihtavuori 20N29 106.4 69.9 4.53 2000 61.4 21789 7346 1.811
IMR 4831 75.5 44.1 2.86 2000 84.9 19047 7081 1.918
Accurate 3100 87.0 50.3 3.26 2000 81.7 18870 7314 1.944
Somchem S361 76.0 49.4 3.20 2000 76.3 21058 6646 1.830
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation 82.7 51.5 3.34 2000 70.8 20948 6862 1.821
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 72.9 45.2 2.93 2000 80.7 19838 6894 1.876
Accurate 8700 107.0 66.9 4.34 2000 63.5 22355 7182 1.786
Alliant Reloder-25 84.9 51.6 3.34 2000 78.0 19357 7556 1.892
Vihtavuori N570 91.4 58.8 3.81 2000 63.3 20089 7607 1.869
Alliant Reloder-50 102.0 67.3 4.36 2000 62.9 19763 8016 1.896
Vihtavuori N165 82.5 49.8 3.23 2000 78.8 20142 6904 1.858
Rottweil R903 67.5 40.7 2.64 2000 89.0 19493 6946 1.930
Norma 203 old 65.8 40.6 2.63 2000 89.3 19380 6994 1.937
Hodgdon H1000 90.0 54.3 3.52 2000 71.4 20943 7097 1.823
Lovex D100 93.0 61.1 3.96 2000 63.8 22031 6739 1.792
Accurate 4350 75.9 44.3 2.87 2000 84.3 18563 7317 1.959
Vihtavuori 24N41 94.8 61.7 4.00 2000 60.2 22223 6876 1.785
V1734 7-multiperf ,test only 142.1 84.9 5.50 2000 33.7 38419 4970 1.478
Hodgdon 50BMG 100.5 62.3 4.04 2000 57.0 21919 6933 1.797
Vihtavuori N170 93.4 56.4 3.66 2000 68.1 20525 6983 1.855
Hodgdon H870 98.4 62.0 4.02 2000 65.7 20273 7668 1.865
ADI AR 2218 96.9 63.0 4.08 2000 58.4 22180 7146 1.788
SNPE Vectan SP 12 85.6 55.8 3.62 2000 71.4 20062 7461 1.862
PB Clermont PCL 517 85.8 55.9 3.62 2000 71.2 20089 7459 1.861
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 85.5 55.9 3.62 2000 71.2 20079 7462 1.862
NC A3502 ,test only 111.1 66.4 4.30 2000 46.8 26041 5914 1.676
SNPE Vectan SP 13 103.2 64.4 4.17 2000 65.4 20992 7284 1.836
Hodgdon US 869 101.2 65.8 4.26 2000 60.2 21983 7035 1.800
TLP A 502(RH) ,test only 112.3 67.1 4.35 2000 51.3 24656 6419 1.715
PB Clermont PCL 513/520/9520 105.5 65.8 4.26 2000 63.8 21371 7236 1.822
Hodgdon Retumbo 93.2 57.2 3.71 2000 72.6 20172 7593 1.862

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

One of my goto powers for this application would be WC860. It's a surpluss powder a little slower then H870. I've loaded a full case behind heavy bullets in the 6.5 Sweed, 270 Win, and .338 WM. In each instance, it gave velocites suitable for case bullets, and excellent accuracy.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Yes, that was a copy and paste fm QL, yea, something is wierd about that formating from last night.
The order was:
Fill ratio (how full the case is)
charge in grains
charge in grams
velocity
powder burnt
max pressure in psi
pressure at muzzle in psi



Lets try this a different way:

Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 170, LYM LRN GC 311291
Useable Case Capaci: 66.241 grain H2O = 4.301 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4831

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.042% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.4 72 43.00 1748 1174 14919 5494 65.9 2.146
-09.4 73 43.50 1771 1204 15368 5613 66.7 2.115
-08.3 74 44.00 1793 1235 15830 5734 67.5 2.084
-07.3 75 44.50 1816 1267 16304 5854 68.2 2.054
-06.2 76 45.00 1839 1298 16791 5975 69.0 2.025
-05.2 77 45.50 1861 1331 17290 6097 69.8 1.996
-04.2 78 46.00 1884 1364 17800 6219 70.5 1.968
-03.1 78 46.50 1907 1397 18332 6341 71.3 1.940
-02.1 79 47.00 1931 1432 18874 6463 72.1 1.912
-01.0 80 47.50 1954 1466 19429 6585 72.8 1.885
+00.0 81 48.00 1977 1502 20002 6708 73.6 1.859
+01.0 82 48.50 2001 1537 20590 6830 74.3 1.833
+02.1 83 49.00 2024 1574 21194 6952 75.0 1.807
+03.1 83 49.50 2048 1611 21815 7075 75.8 1.782
+04.2 84 50.00 2071 1648 22452 7197 76.5 1.758
+05.2 85 50.50 2095 1686 23108 7319 77.2 1.734

Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 81 48.00 2028 1580 21167 6970 76.7 1.808
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 81 48.00 1925 1423 18877 6428 70.3 1.913

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Step
Fill %
Charge grains
Vel.
Energy ft.lbs
Pmax psi
Pmuz psi
Prop.Burnt %
B_Time ms (bullet time in milliseconds)

 

[DrMike]

Step...........?

Percent deviation from maximum charge

B_Time ms (bullet time in milliseconds).............?

Barrel time--the amount of time that transpires between the bullet first engraving the lands and exiting the barrel

 

[DrMike]

Forty-seven and one-half grains is 1% less than 48 grains. Forty-seven grains is 2.1% less than 48 grains, etc. Forty-eight and one-half grains is 1% more than 48 grains, etc.

 

[DrMike]

QuickLoad can't predict the standard deviation of a test, as that must be determined through generation of data. Standard deviation is simply a measure of consistency for a given load. Standard deviation is a measure of deviation from the norm as measured during actual firing. It may well be related to accuracy, though the relationship is not absolute.