FL vs Neck

[gbflyer]

OK, I’ll rip the Band Aid off.

I’ve got one that shoots so much better with a Lee Collet or .001 shoulder bump than it does with even a .003 shoulder bump that it isn’t even funny. Also effects POI. Not a super lightweight either, about 7.75lb scoped. I’ve checked concentricity on all, they run .001 - .003 at the ogive. Same bullet, same powder. I don’t get it at all.

I’ve read and believed those that advocate for FL every time. I’m starting to believe that should not be a blanket statement.

Anybody else?

 

[desertcj]

I don't full length size anything I load for. People sure get passionate about their choice that's for sure! On another forum, I've basically been called an idiot for neck sizing only...lol

 

[TackDriver284]

I don't full length size anything I load for. People sure get passionate about their choice that's for sure! On another forum, I've basically been called an idiot for neck sizing only...lol

After neck sizing once or twice without full sizing, my .308 bolt starts to close more snugly and tight at times assuming the case shoulders are compressed against the chamber. How do you fix that issue if you were to neck size only? Since you cannot bump shoulders back with a neck sizer.

 

[woods]

A Redding Body Die is an excellent companion die to the Lee Collet. It will size the case body and push the shoulder back without contacting the neck you have just sized with the Lee Collet.

I believe a lot the disagreement with reloaders about Full Length Resizing and Neck Sizing comes from varying definitions of what FLR is. Many would consider bumping the shoulder back .001 (assuming you have sized the neck and case body also) as FLR

 

[desertcj]

Yes. I use Lee collet dies and I also have Redding body dies. I have up to 5 firings on cases that have been neck sized only. The bolt closing tight and snugly is the point of neck sizing.

 

[350JR]

Like many, I've spent a half century or more hand loading and way too often I see "blanket statements" posted that some feel are important and (by definition) always applies to all rifles and all rounds and all bullets, etc, etc.

A whole bunch of times such are old "rule of thumb" axioms that have been aborted and broadened to include ALL rifles, cartridges and bore diameters or are used out of the realm for which they were first applied to.

Some will say one way or the other "always" works best. I am not one of them.

I am a firm believer that everyone has the right to make up their own mind and it's just best to have the "to each their own" attitude but I DO believe there is only ONE rule that applies to all rifles, all cartridges, all bore diameters and all chambers.........all the time.

That rule is.........there AREN'T ANY blanket statements (aka "rule of thumb" applications) that applies the same to all rifles, all cartridges, all bore diameters and all chambers.........all the time.

I just try everything for every rifle I load for and then pick the things that seem to work best from my results but I admit I do so only when I'm dissatisfied with just neck sizing or, if loading hot, neck sizing and bumping the shoulder as little as I can get by with.

I have seen, however, cartridges and rifle chamber combinations where full length resizing was unbeatable for accuracy, but it's not happened very often......for me.

God Bless
Steve

 

[Guy Miner]

Steve - I like that - the "blanket statement" isn't always true.

For some rifles I neck size my ammo. For other rifles, it's full-length every time. Even have a couple that are sorta in-between, kind of a "partial full length size"

It's interesting, and I'm not sure I've got the "right" answers, but my ammo is reliable and accurate, so I'm happy.

Guy

 

[TackDriver284]

I full length size mostly for a few reasons. 1.) My Giraud trimmer works best and trims spot on when cases are full sized, if neck sizing it will cause issues in trim length since the trimming is based off off the shoulders of each case in the case holder. 2.) It works very well in the accuracy department for all of my rifles, even off the bench as well in the field. 3.) I like it best when the bolt closes easily and the same each time due to bumping shoulders back .001" or .002" I have had different bolt closing tensions with neck sizing.
I don't have to worry about working the brass since I anneal every two firings.

I'll try neck sizing a few " full size" loads that is stupid accurate and see if it makes any difference at all. It's been ages since I neck sized due to the above reasons.

Accuracy is one of the main reasons I went to full sizing.

 

[gbflyer]

Good discussion.

I had a bench gun years ago that switched barreled between 22 SPPC and 6PPC for heavy varmint/light varmint competition. I used Wilson dies, which use a bushing and only size the neck. I swear I could shoot the same case 15 times and the bolt always closed with little resistance. There was no need to FL size. I don’t care where I set the headspace on anything I’ve chambered myself, I cannot duplicate that. I’m starting to think it was that old Lapua brass we used. I’ve never used Lapua much in anything else.

I like that body die suggestion. As soon as I recover from the new MagnetoSpeed, that might find it’s way into the old Brownells queue.

 

[desertcj]

For me, the Lee collet dies have been my go to. No lube resizing is awesome! I know that many prefer bushing dies and they do seem advantageous due to the swappability of the bushings to change the neck tension. I haven't used them so I don't know if they require lube or not. The other thing I like about the Lee collet dies is that I get little to no case stretching. My cases have grown on average, .002" over 5 shots in a .243 with its shallow shoulder angle.

 

[Dr. Vette]

I'll add my routine to the rest - Lee collet and a Redding body die when I can.

Some they don't make, so a Redding neck bushing die + body die will also work. I rarely use a conventional full length die as I try to minimize how much crush & expansion the neck goes through with each sizing.

And, since I have a machine, I anneal every firing.

 

[desertcj]

FYI, Lee will make a collet die for whatever you want. You have to send them cases and it costs more than off the shelf obviously.

 

[jimbires]

I use the Lee collet dies with a redding body die . I adjust the body die for about .002-.003 shoulder bump . the Lee collet makes straight ammo . I also use neck bushing dies without the expander . I use a bushing that just sizes enough that I need to expand . then I use a expander mandrel die to get my neck size . I also use the redding body die with this too . I still use a few regular run of the mill full length dies , I set these for a .002 - .003 shoulder bump . I neck size only for 2 or 3 cycles on new brass to get them expanded , then I bump shoulders every time . most of my stuff is loaded around max pressures , I get tight to chamber by neck sizing only . to keep things consistent I bump shoulders every time , except new brass . I anneal every time too .

you guys that neck size only for a few cycles , then bump the shoulders one time , then neck size only for a few cycles . do you see a difference on the targets , between these two methods ? what distance do you shoot ?

 

[desertcj]

I can't tell you because I've not had to bump a shoulder yet. I've put down 2.5" 3 shot groups at 525yds on steel. 1000yd hits on 12" steel have been elusive for me...most shots are very close but only a few hits.

 

[1Shot]

I have been hand loading for 40 years and if there is one thing I have learned is that each weapon you are loading for has it's own personality. Feed it what it likes and it will be happy. Most finnicky rifle I ever had was a Rem. 700 Stainless 7mm Rem mag. Bought 100 new cases and started load work up just using the new cases. Thing shot like a shotgun no matter what load and bullet tried. Double checked everything on the rifle and was all fine. By this time I had used up all the new cases and decided to just part size as I call it with a FL die. I smoked the neck of the case and adjusted the FL size die until it just sized the neck and barely touched the shoulder. I loaded up the most accurate load from other trials that shot just under 2" and went to the range. First shot I hit the target. Second shot then looked through the spotting scope. Great, I thought now the thing will not even put two shots on the target. Shot a third shot, still only the first bullet hole. Shot the forth shot and when I looked through the spotting scope still just that first shot bullet hole but it looked like that hole was just a little bit larger for some reason. I passed it off as just my eye sight. Just to burn up that last round I shot it at the same point of aim and still one hole in the target but dang it does look like that hole is bigger. Walked down to the target and could see that ALL the shots went into the same hole making it about the size of a 38 caliber hole. That rifle turned out to be a tack driver with almost anything you put through it as long as you just part sized the case.

 

[TackDriver284]

I also use neck bushing dies without the expander . I use a bushing that just sizes enough that I need to expand . then I use a expander mandrel die to get my neck size .

Jim, I am a bit confused, does the Lee collet come with the expander? If so, eliminating that expander and using a separate expander mandrel make it more precise? What brand is that separate expander mandrel if I may ask?j

I have the carbide neck turning mandrels which is .002" under bullet diameter which I use for neck turning, will that work as an expanding mandrel for seating bullets?


Good information guys. I have always been a Redding fan, trying to learn something new.

 

[jimbires]

I also use neck bushing dies without the expander . I use a bushing that just sizes enough that I need to expand . then I use a expander mandrel die to get my neck size .

Jim, I am a bit confused, does the Lee collet come with the expander? If so, eliminating that expander and using a separate expander mandrel make it more precise? What brand is that separate expander mandrel if I may ask?j

I have the carbide neck turning mandrels which is .002" under bullet diameter which I use for neck turning, will that work as an expanding mandrel for seating bullets?


Good information guys. I have always been a Redding fan, trying to learn something new.

yes , the Lee collet die squeezes the neck around the mandrel , the die won't work without the mandrel . I've read that Lee will make different sized mandrels too , I've not needed to do this . when I use the collet die I don't use the separate expander die , the collet does it all . I only use the expander die when I use a bushing die without a expander button . I use this die and mandrels from sinclair . the turning mandrel could be to small , I use the expander mandrel , it's .001" bigger than the turning mandrel .

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading- ... 38807.aspx

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading- ... ERNATIONAL


the idea is when you pull the expander up through the case neck you can pull it out of align . when you push down into the neck the case supports the neck .


**********CAUTION I'VE BEEN THINKING *****
" I THINK " I have figured out a way to be able to mandrel expand necks to the neck tension desired , without buying a precision set of custom mandrels . " I THINK " , I could put a pin gauge in a bullet puller die , use this to expand my necks , and get any neck tension I wanted . a bevel would need to be ground on the pin gauge , which I don't think would be any big deal to do . I would like to buy a set of pin gauges , and this would be another use for them .

 

[desertcj]

He was talking about bushing dies. The Lee collet has a mandrel and a collet. The collet squeezes the neck against the mandrel. You can order different size mandrel or turn it down to get more neck tension. Out of the box, mine was only .001" under bullet diameter.

 

[TackDriver284]

Jim / CJ, I understand it a lot better now. Thanks for explaining it.

 

[Guy Miner]

Walked down to the target and could see that ALL the shots went into the same hole making it about the size of a 38 caliber hole. That rifle turned out to be a tack driver with almost anything you put through it as long as you just part sized the case.

Sweet!