Guiding rifle

[Africa Huntress]

I dunno much about guiding - and I like the .45/70 Marlin - but I think it would be a pretty specialized gun, most suitable as a shorter range thumper.

Wouldn't a guide have to be prepared to take a longish shot, say to stop a wounded bull elk from getting away into a nasty canyon, or into the black timber? I'd think some kind of a powerful, accurate, reliable, relatively light bolt action would be the thing to have. Maybe a .30 - .35 cal, with the ability to reach out and smack at 300+ yards as well as taking on heavy work at close range...

Versatility and rugged reliability would be good attributes of a guide's rifle I'd think.

It's Africa - but a fellow who posts over on 24 hour campfire is an African hunting guide. He owns two rifles, both Winchester Model 70's, in .30-06 and .375 H&H. Seems like a good combo.

Just rambling thoughts while the coffee kicks in this morning. :grin:

Sometimes I add a little Baileys to the coffee to accelerate it kicking in LOL

It is true that with all the calibers that are out there and there are a lot of good ones, you still see as many 30-06, 375 and 416 in Africa as anything else.

I have seen guides in Alaska use different guns, depending on what your hunting and where your hunting it. 300, 338, 375 certainly would all work. The only reason I prefer the 375 over the 338 is I have always felt the 375 shoves me and the 338 smacks me ( recoil wise ) , so I find I am able to handle the 375 a little better. However a man can handle recoil better than a woman, in most cases and the 338 will reach out a little further.

 

[Anonymous]

After batting this topic around with a couple of guide friends, the Ruger is popular for several reasons- one being that its a pretty robust rifle that can withstand a lot of rugged treatment and another is relatively low cost and near universal availability.

The lever gun is frequently avoided due to its rather weak primary extraction ability and that doesn't mix well with hotter loads.

I know a lot of guys who hunt with lever actions though but none of them in a guiding capacity.

With modern bullets the .338 is often at its best with 225gr but I've seen a lot of excellent results with 180ABs and 210PTs as well- probably species dependent as to what's best. I did see an outstanding 350yd shot on a goat with a .338WM and the 180AB.

 

[BK]

I know squat about guiding, but in my mind, I would look for either a NH Stainless Classic M70 in .375 H&H (or maybe one of the new Alaskan Stainless M70 .375) lop the barrel off at 22-23", re-install the factory sights, or maybe a big front bead with a tritium insert, get the sucker Cerakoted or Black-T'd, mount it in an EDGE tech McMillan - maybe the D'Arcy Echols Legend pattern, and mount a 30mm VX3 1.5-5x in QD mounts. 3 to 3.5 lb. trigger (this part is what leads me to the NH rather than the SC M70).

A Ruger may be equally as good, but I don't know much about QD mounts that utilize the Ruger ringmounts.

 

[35 Whelen]

While a 45/70 is a neat old caliber, it is certainly not a caliber that must guides would normally want to limit themselfs to, as an all around caliber. Lever guns are cool and fun to play with, but are probably not the most practical actions for all around guiding use. I think Mooswa told you straight , trying to help a hunter with a 350 yd Sheep or Goat is really outta a 45/70 league. Playing Teddy Rosevelt with a .405 is really more of that same thing. Your dad needs to look at a CFR in a caliber that will get it all done . That is why the .338 keeps coming up in the post. It will do it all, and then some. Of course a 338/06, a 35 Whelen, or even a 358Win, or 338 Federal, would all probably work fine as well. Again the Ruger Stainless Hawkeye is mentioned time and again, as it covers everthing nicely . So while I have nothing in the world against a Marlin Guide Gun, it would probably be one of my last choices for a guide gun...................... . I did guide for many years in Alaska and I had very few guides work for us with lever guns . A few did have the old Winchester 71s in .450 Alaskan, and one of our guides up in the Brooks Range did use a .358 Browning BLR for Moose and Grizzley sucessfully . But 98% where luging around a bolt action gun and many were in .338WM................... Good luck .

 

[wildgene]

...well...

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... 35&tid=008

...w/ some good 220gr. loads, you'ld be getting MV/ energy comparable to a .338 in a 22" barrel, very manageable recoil, a fast, short 60* bolt throw, @ just over 7# w/ a VX-3 2.5X8 or 3.5X10, short & light enough for the reproduction & brush, still an honest 500yd. cartridge (2300fps/ 40"drop). Personally, I could do w/o the BOSS...

 

[DrMike]

I do like the 325 WSM. It does pack a punch.

 

[Wincheringen]

I'm no guide, but my bear gun is a .444 Marlin tuned up by Wild West Guns. Its got their extended magazine, 18.5" ported barrel, ghost ring sights, WWG extractor and ejector, and cleaned up action. Its throated for Beartooth's 335 grain WFN, and if I shorten the case a little bit it will feed their 405 grain bullet.

 

[Mooswa]

35 Whelen has a lot of background with this sort of thing in Alaska and really has said what is true. Certain cartridges keep cropping up for a reason when it comes to guide rifles here in North America.

You cannot compare NE British Columbia with many other places in North America. It is also the north with extremely variable weather and not comparable to Africa for a lot of reasons.

People also need to understand that guiding is a job. By that I mean there is a big difference between you working as a guide and you going on a personal hunting trip. A HUGE difference. Guiding, while very enjoyable when you have good clients, is an occupation that comes with certain risks and responsibilities.

A guide has responsibilities to the outfitter who employs him, the person(s) he is guiding, the people he works with, the animals in his care, the game department, and to himself with regards to moral and ethical behavior and actions. There are also liability issues because we live in a world where people sue because few are willing to accept that shit happens or that they may have done something stupid.

Laws are different in a lot of jurisdictions as to when a guide should shoot, if at all, but generally it is to protect the client and others (including the guide), and to prevent a wounded animal from escaping. Lots of other wording out there but that is the basics of it.

It is NOT just about busting a wounded bear at close range. NE BC is very diverse and that is not just species, it is also the terrain and habitat as well. You can be guiding archery hunters, muzzleloader hunters and rifle hunters. You only pull the trigger when things have gone wrong.

In the old days it would be one guide with one or two hunters and the guide............. well he was the professional hunter, the tracker, the skinner, the camp setter upper, the firewood cutter, the cook, the dishwasher, the wrangler, the packer, the mechanic, the confidant, the first-aid attendant, the companion.

Things are a bit better today when working for some outfitters. Over the years the clients have complained about wasted days and so now some outfits have wranglers to do the horsey things in the morning and they act as packers in some places to go and pack the meat out after a kill so the guide and hunter can keep hunting other species. Some spike camps even have cooks now (this is a good thing :wink: ).

You do not have the room or the means to pack several firearms around when you are guiding, especially on horseback hunts. You have to have one rifle that can take a licking and get the job done under a variety of conditions and situations. You do not have a lot of time to babysit your rifle. You do not have the time or space to mess around with several loads that have been worked up to meet the needs of specific situations........... you need to have a one rifle and one load does it all sort of a deal.

Personally, if it was me guiding there again I would be carrying a .338 WM with a good 225 grain bullet as first pick because it is a little flatter shooting and we have better bullets now. In days gone by it would have been a 250. That said I would not hesitate to do it with the 210 Partition either. Overall though, I think the 225's are the most versatile.

I love the .375 H&H but for that part of the country the .338 would be my choice. If we switched to the coast I would reverse that.

Others of course will get the job done..........

 

[Africa Huntress]

35 Whelen has a lot of background with this sort of thing in Alaska and really has said what is true. Certain cartridges keep cropping up for a reason when it comes to guide rifles here in North America.

You cannot compare NE British Columbia with many other places in North America. It is also the north with extremely variable weather and not comparable to Africa for a lot of reasons.

People also need to understand that guiding is a job. By that I mean there is a big difference between you working as a guide and you going on a personal hunting trip. A HUGE difference. Guiding, while very enjoyable when you have good clients, is an occupation that comes with certain risks and responsibilities.

A guide has responsibilities to the outfitter who employs him, the person(s) he is guiding, the people he works with, the animals in his care, the game department, and to himself with regards to moral and ethical behavior and actions. There are also liability issues because we live in a world where people sue because few are willing to accept that shit happens or that they may have done something stupid.

Laws are different in a lot of jurisdictions as to when a guide should shoot, if at all, but generally it is to protect the client and others (including the guide), and to prevent a wounded animal from escaping. Lots of other wording out there but that is the basics of it.

It is NOT just about busting a wounded bear at close range. NE BC is very diverse and that is not just species, it is also the terrain and habitat as well. You can be guiding archery hunters, muzzleloader hunters and rifle hunters. You only pull the trigger when things have gone wrong.

In the old days it would be one guide with one or two hunters and the guide............. well he was the professional hunter, the tracker, the skinner, the camp setter upper, the firewood cutter, the cook, the dishwasher, the wrangler, the packer, the mechanic, the confidant, the first-aid attendant, the companion.

Things are a bit better today when working for some outfitters. Over the years the clients have complained about wasted days and so now some outfits have wranglers to do the horsey things in the morning and they act as packers in some places to go and pack the meat out after a kill so the guide and hunter can keep hunting other species. Some spike camps even have cooks now (this is a good thing :wink: ).

You do not have the room or the means to pack several firearms around when you are guiding, especially on horseback hunts. You have to have one rifle that can take a licking and get the job done under a variety of conditions and situations. You do not have a lot of time to babysit your rifle. You do not have the time or space to mess around with several loads that have been worked up to meet the needs of specific situations........... you need to have a one rifle and one load does it all sort of a deal.

Personally, if it was me guiding there again I would be carrying a .338 WM with a good 225 grain bullet as first pick because it is a little flatter shooting and we have better bullets now. In days gone by it would have been a 250. That said I would not hesitate to do it with the 210 Partition either. Overall though, I think the 225's are the most versatile.

I love the .375 H&H but for that part of the country the .338 would be my choice. If we switched to the coast I would reverse that.

Others of course will get the job done..........

Excellent post. I agree. I have my own personal reasons for preferring the 375 over the 338. But to the op I think the 338 is the best answer. In fact I would go a step further if I decided to go away from the 375 and I would get a 340 weatherby. You can get a little more of everything, distance, velocity, energy and can even do it with a little larger bullet, for that lets make sure they stay put shot. However, cost of bullets and even the available of bullets are the negatives to this caliber. My husband likes his a lot. I am more of a 300 H & H and 375 H & H user.

I also forgot --you are also correct about the differences in climate, and terrain and why it makes a difference. You mentioned NE BC compared to Africa and you are correct. We have hunted in places like Canada, alaska, Russia and how the cold effects equipment is different than how hunting on the Equator in Africa effects equipment. If your hunting or guiding in a different part of the world other than where you have always hunted, then you must also figure climate and terrain into your equation. Like the gentleman I am quoting said he would use different calibers depending on where he is going to hunt in British Columbia. Excellent point Mooswa

 

[JD338]

This has been a very informative thread, great information.
The original question was regarding the 1895 Guide rifle and up close on bear, it would be a good choice but you all have brought up good points. A guide is in a position/situation that has to fix a problem...fast.
With so many variables, I agree with you all that a good bolt action in 338, 375 416 cals are where you need to be. To me, the 338 Win Mag would be the most versatile.

JD338

 

[Rem Jim]

This has been a very informative thread, great information.
The original question was regarding the 1895 Guide rifle and up close on bear, it would be a good choice but you all have brought up good points. A guide is in a position/situation that has to fix a problem...fast.
With so many variables, I agree with you all that a good bolt action in 338, 375 416 cals are where you need to be. To me, the 338 Win Mag would be the most versatile.

JD338

This has being a very good thread ! As you and others say the 338 win mag is a very very good cartridge - i have owned 2 now and have shot a lot of bears with the 338 - mostly with Nosler 210 gr Partitons ! I have yet to shoot any animals with my new 375 H&H but will be bear hunting in the spring .I plan to use 300 gr A Frames in it . Now as far as the 45-70 goes i have yet to kill a bear with it either- spring plans for it also - I have 525 Beartooth Piledriver cast bullets i intend to use to take a bear - I have also some Nosler 300 gr partitions - which are discontinued by Nosler - ??? who knows why - lots of guys looking for them ! I think if i were a guide and doing back up i would like either the 338 with a 250 gr or the 375 with a 300 gr - JMHO RJ :grin:

 

[SJB358]

I think if I were working for an outfitter, a decently weighted 375 would be a good call. I wouldn't have many issues with my 338WM shooting 250's either though. Seems like both of them have enough energy to keep animals down. Never shot anything with the 375, but the 338 is a well rounded hammer.

 

[SJB358]

If a guy gets a rifle in 338 wm what should a guy load it to and what gr. of bullet should a person do to load it.

250 PT's or A-Frames would be my choice. Run them around 2700 and you have alot of energy near and far and they will flat penetrate!

 

[IdahoCTD]

If it was me I'd opt for a .375 of some flavor, probably the Ruger because it's shorter and fits in the magazine better. I'd either load it with 260AB's or 300gr Cutting Edge bullets (most likely these). The CE bullets would make it close to a .338 EDGE/Lapua shooting 300gr SMK's, around 2800fps with a .750BC. They are solid copper so you know they will penetrate well and will still handle long range duties if need be. Even though I'm a Remington fan I'd probably build it on a Winchester SS CRF action. Have sights put on it and use Leupold QR mounts. For a scope something like the new VX6 2x10 with a CDS knob would cover just about anything from 10 feet to 600+yds.

 

[SJB358]

If it was me I'd opt for a .375 of some flavor, probably the Ruger because it's shorter and fits in the magazine better. I'd either load it with 260AB's or 300gr Cutting Edge bullets (most likely these). The CE bullets would make it close to a .338 EDGE/Lapua shooting 300gr SMK's, around 2800fps with a .750BC. They are solid copper so you know they will penetrate well and will still handle long range duties if need be. Even though I'm a Remington fan I'd probably build it on a Winchester SS CRF action. Have sights put on it and use Leupold QR mounts. For a scope something like the new VX6 2x10 with a CDS knob would cover just about anything from 10 feet to 600+yds.

That sounds like the exact rifle I want built in a 358 magnum IdahoCTD! Just a hard hunting rifle ready for about anything. With PT's, NF, or Swifts, I would feel comfortable pretty much everywhere!

 

[Polaris]

Thought about this over the weekend, out of cell phone range . Is he going to be a one-on-one guide off-trail or are you talking wrangler, where his primary responsibility is care and protection of clients, horses and camp not necessarily in that order. As a camp/pack wrangler, I think the lever gun or even a 12 ga stuffed with 00 buck and slugs would be a good bet.

For an all around walkin gun where big bad critters live and the possibility of long shooting, I think it'd be hard to beat a 338 WM on a Ruger or Mauser action.

very different needs for the 2 occupations.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah- "guide" is unfortunately not that inclusive of a term.

Some "guides" aren't even allowed to carry a weapon in certain locales. Shooting is the sole responsibility of the client. Some are only going to shoot to prevent an inbound nasty from munching a client. Some may shoot an outbound critter to prevent it's escape.

Most guides are extremely leery of letting a client shoot over a couple hundred yards (if that!)- not sure where this idea of a guide knocking off a fleeing critter at 400+ comes from, frankly I've never had a guide tell me about doing this. Not saying it isn't done-just that I haven't heard of it.

 

[mcseal2]

I haven't hunted dangerous game unless you count wild hogs and I don't. I have hunted with several guides over the years and noticed that guides often carry a rifle until they see the client shoot. I asked a friend I hunt with who was an outfitter for 25yrs about this. He said many guides feel it necessary to carry a gun to put down a poorly hit animal before it escapes, or to put a well-hit one down faster. When hunting country with big deep canyons where an animal drops can make recovery a heck of a lot easier or harder. When elk hunting with him once the hunter with first chance at a bull makes a hit, it becomes everyone's job to shut him down right there.

In easier country it seems that guides often pack their own gun until they are comfortable with a client's shooting ability. I always ask a guide or outfitter if I can shoot my rifle when I arrive at camp both to check my scope and to show them that I can shoot. I check my zero from the closest thing to a bench I can find, then shoot a few from field positions. I feel that if I show them I'm competent they relax more and trust my ability and judgement more on what shots or even what animal I'm allowed to take. I've had several say that it is way more enjoyable to guide a client that they know can shoot, rather than spend all the time and effort to get into position on an animal and then have a miss or worse wound the animal. Some guides won't attempt to get a client on a special animal that they have a history with unless they are confident the shooter can do their part for fear of wounding and losing it.

Back to the OP I'd go with a 338 for open country. I'd want a stainless Ruger, 24" barrel, Leupold 2.5x8 B&C scope, and good open sights. I'd also likely have it re-stocked with a Manners or similar stock built to fit me, increase strength, and drop weight.

 

[35 Whelen]

Speaking of guides guns , I just recieved a nice little care package yesterday from a guide friend in Petersburg Alaska that I have worked with over the years. He found out from a mutual friend in Dillingham that I was shooting the old 35 Whelen a bit this winter . I had sent him up a quart of fresh maple syrup last spring that we had boiled down. The care package has a new box of Kodiak Bonded Bullets in 250gr in .358 diameter. I loaded a box of them this morning with 59grs of RL-15 and that will net me right at 2600fps over our chronograph all the time with Speer 250 Hot Cores.
Now that should make an awesome Alaska load and a combo that will definately qualify as a "guides load" in most books.................... he had left a little note about them as they are only made a short ways from his place and it said.
Earle
You can count on these to hold up under any conditions you will ever encounter. And trust your life on them! [Sounds like Jim Shockey to me!] He has guided in Alaska right at 35 years now in SE and the Brooks Range and knows bullets well . So I was very pleased to get them and will let you all know how they perform as we gain experence with them.
e

 

[DrMike]

I've used the Kodiak bonded core 250 grain .358 in my .356 for quite a few years. It is a great bullet that gives me good performance. I do not doubt that these will work very well in the 35 Whelen. I also have a small supply for .284 and .308 calibres, which I've used a few times in my 30-06 and in my .280. My problem is getting these particular bullets into Canada without paying an exorbitant price. My dwindling supply is reserved for my lever guns and I'll continue to use Nosler and Barnes for the 35 Whelen.