H4350 doggone it!

[Guy Miner]

H4350 has become disturbingly difficult to find! Fortunately I bought a fresh 8 lb jug and haven't tapped into that one yet, but I haven't seen any on the shelf at any gun shop in a long time, and ordering it has been difficult as well.

Really gives me a problem because I had several loads that used that powder. Good loads!

.375 H&H: 300 gr and also the 270/260 gr bullets sometimes
.300 WSM: 210 gr
.30-06: 165, 180 & 200 gr
.25-06: 100 gr
6mm Rem: 100 gr (though RL-22 works better)

I can still find IMR 4350, and have had good results from it, though it really likes to crunch in the ol' powder thrower! Also found it changed point of impact significantly with big temperature swings.

How's 4451 as a substitute? Heck, it's getting hard to find too!

Guy

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I've got 4 pounds of it (H4350) I don't really need anymore...

Too bad we're 2,800 miles apart.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

I don't understand why just a few years ago, we were able to get ample supplies of powder, bullets, and loaded ammunition. Now there hardly isn't any of rhe great powder selection, but loaded ammo is extremely high priced as well.

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[Cleveland48]

I have not seen H4350 in over a year. I have 1lb left so I don't even bother using it cause I know I can't find anymore. RL 16 has replaced H4350 for me. Unfortunately it's getting hard to find too.


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[Nimrod84]

IMR 4451 seems to be a decent substitute depending on the cartridge and bullet. Regarding burn rates; the Hodgdon 2016 annual magazine notated that the burn rate for H 4831 and IMR 4955 could switch in the same cartridge with different bullets. I've seen some references along those lines for H/IMR 4350 and IMR 4451.

General consensus is that IMR 4451 is in between the IMR 4350 and H 4350 in temp stability. There are a lot of different results being reported, so their are a few theories that the detergents used (like the anti-copper additive) make it more sensitive to primer brisance, that there is a large lot to lot variation and or it being an eco friendly product means it is less robust or stable.

In smaller cases like your 6mm Rem it seems like the general rule is that loading will be about the same. With 30-06 sized cases the general rule seems like it takes less IMR 4451 to equal the velocity of H/IMR 4350. I have no information regarding the 375 H&H...

I have a pretty good load for the 30-06 using a 165 grain core-lok and 54.2 grains of IMR4451. Beyond that I can't comment as to real world experiences on my end and I have not done much cold weather testing with it.

A decent overview of the temp stability of IMR 4451 can be found at: http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/06/1 ... r-enduron/.

Hope that helps...

 

[Guy Miner]

Thanks!

I have messed with a few other powders, but settled on H4350 long ago, just assuming it would be around as long as I'm hunting & shooting... Nope.

Time to mess around with more powders soon I suppose, though I can likely "milk" that 8 pounder for quite a while. Mostly I use it in my .30-06, I just don't shoot the other rifles nearly as much.

Guy

 

[Nimrod84]

I really like IMR 4451 in the two 30-06 rifles I've used it in. As stated I have a good midrange load with 165 bullets and I had (have I guess) a very promising 180 grain Nosler Partitions load ranging from 53-55.5 grains of IMR 4451 which I moved away from. With the 180's I was getting some periodic primer cratering which I am pretty sure was from me crushing the odd primer when priming with my handheld unit.

Edited to add: Rol_P and Rodell both have good 30-06 loads using 180 grainers and IMR 4451. Rol_P lists his data at: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35367&hilit=IMR+4451+partition. Rodell also has what could be a good 150 grain load which he writes about at: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33026&p=356443&hilit=IMR+4451+partition#p356443.

IMR 4451 does tend to burn dirty and I'm not seeing much improvement with copper build-up in the 30-06's I've shot it in. Guys shooting it in the 6.5 Creedmoor seem to report a cleaner burn than I am experiencing.

Having wrote that I would not recommend buying an 8lb jug of IMR 4451 until you know how it meters for you and or otherwise verify that it holds promise. I know a few shooters using IMR 4166 were ready to turn it into fertilizer when it wouldn't meter through their equipment.

Good luck and shoot straight.

 

[SJB358]

RL16 has worked the same for me. Easy to dispense and seems pretty speedy as well. It's worked just about like any other 4350 with 180's and 165's in a 30-06 or 140's in a 6.5 Swede.

 

[Tjay]

JB over 24hourcampfire has switched most of his 4350 loads to 4451. Said it is easier to find than H4350.

 

[Cleveland48]

RL16 has worked the same for me. Easy to dispense and seems pretty speedy as well. It's worked just about like any other 4350 with 180's and 165's in a 30-06 or 140's in a 6.5 Swede.

RL16 is my favorite powder in the 6.5 CM! Have not tried it in anything else though. I'm gonna start a work up pretty soon with IMR 4451 and see how it does, plus 4451 is on the shelf every time I go to buy powder.


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[shoots_5]

I had a fantastic load with H4350 in my 260 and as it got harder to find I worked up a load using IMR4451 and it is shooting just as well. I think it's a pretty good powder as well. Haven't noticed it being any more or less sensitive to temperature swings and it's much easier to find in my area. I haven't seen H4350 on the shelf at any of our local stores in well over a year....my hunch is that it has become a very popular powder with the 6.5 and 6 creedmore type cartridges along with the growth of various styles of long range competition involving said powders had led to a supply shortage that is bought up in bulk by competitors that shoot 1,000's of rounds a year.

 

[roncwarren]

IMR4451, RL16, RL26 or H4831sc are good alternatives

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[SJB358]

I tried 4451 some but in my opinion it doesnt hold a candle to 16. Granted I didn't use it a ton but it was quickly replaced with 16.

 

[Rol_P]

I have developed very accurate 180 Partition loads for my 30-06 using IMR 4451.
I believe the manufacturers are dedicating production to the Enduron powders and
forgotten about H4350 which I can not find locally. 4451 is marketed as unaffected by
changes in temperature.

I cannot say that temperature changes do or do not affect velocity or POI with IMR4451.
It is dirty and takes a lot of cleaning to keep the bore clean.

Before I tried H4350 I was using Reloder 22 with good success. After the season
I may revisit Reloder 22, but I remember hearing it was not temperature stable,
but I had no difficulties with it.

When NYDAN and I shot my Montana '06 a few weeks ago we both had sub moa
Groups using 180 Partitions and IMR4451 in my handloads at 100 yds.ze=85][/size]

 

[ElmerThud]

IMR4350 works for me in my .25-06 Guy. It delivers a bit more MV than H4350 with a 100gn bullet.
Can't say I've seen any temperature instability, but then I hunt at +18C to -7C, not a massive variation.
You're right though, it really doesn't meter smoothly. I wish it & IMR4831 would.

Both IMR4350 & 4831 deliver superb accuracy and power for me.
Good luck with your search.

 

[Clarkma]

I have jugs of H4350 that took years to find in the dark times.
But in 2016 and again in 2017, I will hunt with 4451 and 4166.

Every year I build rifles. This year; 308, 257 Roberts, 6.5-06, 7mmRemMag, and 250 Sav.

The 250 Sav may get some CFE223 [not great temp stability, but high velocity and Copper fouling resistant like the 4451 and 4166].

 

[longrangehunter]

Guy....... at 7000 grains per pound you should get just over 1,000 rounds in a 30-06. That's a lot of shooting buddy, and by that time I'm sure you'd find another Jug or few pounds when you do get low?

I've looked and called every LGS around here for over a year now looking for H4350 Ext. and I missed finding some just this week by a day I was told from the Sportsman's Wearhouse girl. Sucks not having something that is the best powder for a cartridge.

 

[Guy Miner]

Guy....... at 7000 grains per pound you should get just over 1,000 rounds in a 30-06. That's a lot of shooting buddy,

Yup, I'm good to go for now, for a couple of years probably.

Guy

 

[preacher]

Love that H4350! I'm sure some will show up one of these days...meanwhile, I use my last dregs sparingly. I especially like it in cold weather.

 

[truck driver]

I have jugs of H4350 that took years to find in the dark times.
But in 2016 and again in 2017, I will hunt with 4451 and 4166.

Every year I build rifles. This year; 308, 257 Roberts, 6.5-06, 7mmRemMag, and 250 Sav.

The 250 Sav may get some CFE223 [not great temp stability, but high velocity and Copper fouling resistant like the 4451 and 4166].

Funny I have used lots of CFE223 in the 35Whelen/AI and not seen terrible velocity swings. I have shot this in both below freezing and over 90* with no problems.