Hi all and which calibre to choose?

[pshooter]

Hi Everybody.

Just want to introduce myself as I'm new to the forum.

My name is Paul from Dorset, England. Have gotten into reloading in the last few months and use Nosler bullets in my .243 deer rifle.

If you can advise by way of my first post here, I am looking to have a rifle put together for long-range target/deer. I have been looking at the 6.5x55 AI and the 7mm Rem. Mag. Which would you say would be the best to look at for target accuracy and hunting deer (possibly elk on the continent too) out to around 600+?. I use the Remington 700 BDL .243 out to about 200 and want something that will stretch out further and as accurately as possible (notwithstanding the skill of the shooter!)

If you have other ideas for calibres than the two above please say so. I may be looking at Georgia Precision to put something together for me based on a Remington 700 action.

Anyway. Any help would be much appreciated.

Good to become part of the shooting fraternity on line!

Regards
Paul

 

[longwinters]

Welcome Paul.

Nice to make your aquaintence. There are so many calibers you could choose from that it would really be hard for you to go wrong. Things I am sure you are considering are how much recoil are you comfortable with. How long of a barrel do you want to shoot. Are you going to reload or shoot factory ammo. Are you only considering these two calibers? Otherwise I would look at either the 300 win (on the heavy side) or if you are interested in an Ackley Improved I would go with the cream of the crop . . . that being the 280 AI.

Long

 

[JD338]

Pshooter,

I agree with Long, look at the 280 AI. I had one built on a M700 action, blueprinted and a Hart #5 flutted 24" barrel installed. With the 160 gr Nosler AB, I am getting 3000 fps and accuracy is in the .2's.
7mm Rem Mag performance with lighter recoil, 5 shots and 600 yd + range.
The 280 AI is a great all around choice.

Regards,

JD338

 

[pshooter]

Thanks for getting back to me guys. It's appreciated.

Long. To answer your questions. I used to have a Sako TRG .338 Lap. Mag. but this was just too much recoil and weight for anything else other than sitting at the range. Not one to carry in the field!

I think that 300 win would be the upper limit of recoil. Also a 24-25" barrel would be the maximum I would go for. I will definitely wish to reload and will take a good look at the 280 AI.

Judging from what JD338 has to say it would be good to take to the range (depending on the quality of the rifle I have put together) and should out-shoot my current abilities.

I mentioned looking at GA Precision who, as far as I know, build everything on the Remington 700. As a left-hander my base options may be limited but I am sure they can get around that.

Out of interest, what scopes do you guys use? At the moment I am using Leupold 4.5-14x40 LR with Boone and Crockett reticules. Do you think these would be enough magnification for my needs out past 600?

Thanks again for your input. I will take a look at the 280 as an alternative to the 7mm and 6.5x55.

 

[JD338]

Paul,

The Leupold scope you have is perfect fpr 600 yds.
If you decide to "dial" your ranges, you can send your scope back to Leupold and have turrents added.
I currently have a Leupold VXIII 2.5X8 on my 280AI but plan on getting the 4.5x15 LR with the B&C reticle for it this spring.

Regards,

JD338

 

[pshooter]

Thanks JD.

I feel sure that I will go for the 280 AI as it seems to answer all of my needs without too much shoulder damage. Plus I won't need to buy another scope! At the moment my VX-III 4.5-14LR is on my .243 but I also have a 3.5-10x40 B&C which will be ample for the .243 at shorter ranges.

You won't be disappointed with the B&C reticule I'm sure!

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

You cant go wrong with a lot of choices. If your set on 600 yards or so, for targets and deer, I would go with my favorite, the 25-06. Set yourself up with a 115g BTIP and you'll have a lethal deer combo to 600. For a target bullet, you can shoot a 125g ULD RBBT with a BC of around .515. It is a nice bullet! The 115g BTIP is no slouch in the accuracy department to 600 yards either. Now given you said maybe elk is thrown in, most people will argue the 25-06 is to light, but I feel with a well placed shot with a 115g or 120g bullet, it would get the job done to at least 400 yards. However, with a less then idea shot I would think you wont go wrong with your original choice of a 7 RM. You can shoot the 140g BT and have all the deer medicine you can handle to about 1000 yards. For elk, I have seen 2 killed at 750 yards with 140g XLC, and a 160g AB. For targets, I would use the 168g berger VLD. The 7 mag is a legitamate 1000 yard deer/target cartridge, and pushing an 800 yard elk killer. This of course is the upper ends of this cartridge. You can get it with a 25" barrel, good barrel life, not to hard on the shoulder, and usually really accurate in a wel put together rifle. As far as scopes go, if you plan on shooting past 600 yards, the bullet drop compensators such as the B & C and Burris Ballistic plex work ok to 600 yards, but after that they are worthless. Long range is about precision where inches count. You need a rangefinder with a "dial up" system. My personal favorite is the Leupld VX2 6-18x40 Target, fine duplex. IF you dont have a budget, then look no further then a Leupold MK4, either in a 4.5-14x50, or 6.5-20x50, both with 50mm objectives and 30mm tubes. I have the 4.5-14 model and it is very very nice and solid. Hope this helps.

 

[pshooter]

Hi Remy.

I definitely want to be able to push out beyond 600 yards for target and deer and maybe a long range elk which is available to me in Scandinavia when I can get there.

It does become difficult to choose the starting rifle and scope combination and sometimes it doesn't help that there is so much choice!

I think to really narrow the field down there are three calibres that are in the frame and I need to take advice and do some research to see if there is a great difference between them and, if so, find out the advantages and disadvantages.

With a 'straightforward' criteria of 600 yards-plus for medium size and large game (equivalent US whitetail and elk, I think!) and minor competition target work, it seems that the calibre considerations are:

7mm Rem. Mag.
280 AI
6.5x284

The last calibre was suggested by a friend who is a benchrest shooter but has limited knowledge himself of this calibre.

The other considerations are I want to spend more time out shooting than at the reloading bench but I know I have to spend time there to find and produce the rifle/round combination that is best. I also want to find accuracy with the prospect of keeping a healthy shoulder and be able to carry this rifle into the field where required so weight is a consideration too.

Don't know if I am trying to over-simplify this in the hope that one rifle will fit for both hunting and target so, with these three calibres in the frame, any pros and cons you guys have experienced would be most helpul.

Of course, the quest is to find the right combination for me and getting it wrong means I could be stuck with something for a long time. I want to marry the good-looking one and find out she can cook well too!

Thanks again for all your help so far guys.

 

[Tom1911]

pshooter,

Good to hear from one of the "original Americans." :wink:

Since your continent across the pond is home to Scandinavia where there are probably more moose than people in Luxembourg, I'd go with the 7MM Rem Mag. Now if you've intentions of hunting Russia for big bears you might even want to look at that most suitable of calibers whose birthplace was on your continent: the 9.3x64 I believe. It's kind of like getting .375 H&H performance from a standard cartridge. If you're not going to hunt big Russian bears, you would most assuredly be well prepared with .280 Rem/.30-'06 & .308 Win/7MM Rem Mag/.300 Win Mag/.338 Win Mag class of cartridges, the latter being entirely suitable for big Russian bear.

Now if you were to buy say a 7MM Rem Mag and then an 1895 Marlin in .45/70, well, then you'd have it all covered. :wink:

Do you have intentions of hunting Western USA?

 

[Ol` Joe]

If you are looking at the 6.5x284 (a very good long range cartridge) you might want to also consider the 6.5x55AI. The brass should be much easier to find, although Lapua now makes 6.5x284, and the ballistics are very similar. The 1000yd shooters here in the states are ueing both, or so I`ve been lead to believe.

 

[roysclockgun]

pshooter wrote: "Out of interest, what scopes do you guys use? At the moment I am using Leupold 4.5-14x40 LR "

Nothing wrong with that scope, save for perhaps the 4.5X being a little high powered for when you are walking and game goes out very close. Still, workable and an excellent scope.
Caliber: I am giving 7mmReMag another vote. I hunted with a number of calibers and for deer, pronghorn & elk I prefer the 7mmRemMag. To get the most from that caliber, I like a 26" barrel. At 25", you will only give up a little. Factory ammo and hand load components for the 7mmRemMag are available and pleniful most anywhere. When traveling to hunt, I would always opt for a standard, production cartridge over a wildcat cartridge. 7mmRemMag can be loaded hot when you need real speed on your bullet, producing a very flat trajectory. The new generation of bonded bullets give you an opportunity to use a lighter, faster bullet with down range ballistics equal to a heavier, older design bullet.

 

[pshooter]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

Yes, Tom. I hope some day to hunt in the USA as I have friends in Colorado and Nevada. I would also like to get out to Wyoming some time but the years are creeping up...!

I don't see me ever hunting bear but I would like to take some decent sized elk over the next few years. Maybe I should go ahead and buy the .280, 6.5x284 and the 7mm. Do you think the wife would mind? :shock:

I see what Joe is saying as it is easy for me to get Lapua brass in the 6.5's etc.

I still like the thought of the 7mm and wondered if there is much of a trade-off in shoulder punch between that and the 280. Being a lefty it seems that I would have to spend a lot of money to get what I want. I had looked at the Sako 75 Hunter but they don't do a 280 or 6.5x284 or 7mm mag left hand so I will have to get something made-up.

I have been advised here to go for a 6.5x55 Sako 75 Hunter as this will cover all species here and move up to a 7mm if I want to hunt bigger stuff later and also buy a separate target rifle.

It does get a bit confusion after a while but I will have to make a decision some time! Will let you know what I decide to do.

Thanks for all your help fellas. I will get there soon!!!

 

[JD338]

Maybe I should go ahead and buy the .280, 6.5x284 and the 7mm. Do you think the wife would mind? :shock:


I told my wife 20 yrs ago that guns are like golf, you can't play the game with one club! :wink:

Regards,

JD338

 

[longwinters]

Thats where I screwed up. Never took up golf.

Long

 

[Tom1911]

pshooter,

Both of the metric cartridges currently under your review are more than capable of handling your western USA hunting needs, provided you do not hunt big bears; however, the 7MM Rem Mag will reliably take interior griz. USA black bear can be taken with just about anything. If it were me, I'd opt for the 7MM Rem Mag. The only real advantage with it over the .280 Rem comes into operation when using 175 grain bullets, probably the projectile of choice for huge ungulates. With that written, I easily get 3200 FPS with 150 grain Noslers with my Sako in 7MM Rem Mag, and it has a 24" barrel! There is no doubt I could increase this load; however, I cannot detect a need. Therefore, I cannot see how a .280 Rem could keep up with a 7MM Rem Mag. But this is not the critical question. That would address the identified need to do so!

Years years ago I was exposed to the theory that 7MM was the most efficient of all practical calibers for hunting nearly all big game. As I have matured, I have come to think this theory holds water. At 20 grains lighter, the 160 grain 7MM projectile easily exceeds the .308 caliber's 180 grain projectile's sectional density making it more efficient for hunting elk and other big critters. In fact, I have a book in my library that in part examines the birth of the 7MM Rem Mag. It was designed as a long range elk cartridge, and it has performed admirably in that role...like Winnie did in kicking Hitler's rear end and preserving freedom in the western world!!! It is hard to believe he passed on 41 years ago, God rest his soul! He'd a made a damn good American president just like the 7MM Rem Mag makes a damn good big game rifle!

 

[pshooter]

Many thanks Tom.

The 7mm Rem Mag does have the edge in my heart at the moment.

You know one of Winnie's last quotes was that if he had his time over again he would be born an American (Just like his mom).

There are many of us here who will give their support to the US all the way.

Be blessed and thanks for the benefit of your experience!

 

[700 bdl]

I would also agree with a 7 mag. of some sort. Whether remington,wetherby or saum. 7mm is an awesome caliber.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I still think you should opt for the 7 Mag. It's kinda like engines, you cant replace cubic inches. The .280 will never really beat the 7 mag, especially in terms of 600 yards plus. Inside that distance, its a moot point. The 6.5-284 would get the last nod, it just doesn't have the raw power to cleanly harverst an elk at that kinda distance reliably. The heavy 140g has good SD, but still lacks the umphh at longer ranges. There is nothing wrong with the .280, if you choose to get it Ackley improved, you will be spending more time at the bench, plus you take some barrel life off when you fireform brass. Go with the 7 mag and dont look back. However, you could be overlooking one of the best, and thats the 300 WM. Both have good brass out there. Great selection of target bullets, has enough umphh for elk/deer/targets out to 1000 yards and plenty accurate. Neither the 7 mag or 300 mag are fussy. It doesn't take to much time to develop an accurate load for either. I've had both. When you throw LR elk into the equation, I would personally opt for 30 caliber, hence why I have my 300 RUM. 30 cal just has a little more umphh and frontal diameter, as well as the heavier bullet. As far as scopes still go, you cant go wrong with the 4.5-14, or 6-18 leupolds.

 

[Tom1911]

pshooter,

There is no doubt that as president of the USA, had he been born American, Winnie would have been as successful as he was as British primie minister.

Kids growing up in America were (are?) taught that FDR saved the world from Nazi aggression. It wasn't until I was in college that I was exposed to the idea that maybe Chruchill was the true brains behind the Allies' victory. Since FDR was initially fond of Hitler and always found Stalin appealing whereas Churchill hated both with equal vigor, I now believe that but for Churchill the world would be a much different place. God arranged his succession of Chamberlain for a reason!

Then you guys had to give us Margaret Thatcher, who along with Ronald Reagan destroyed the Evil Empire thereby proving to the world that a strong-willed woman can be an excellent leader. Relax you Hillary supporters, Mrs. Clinton is not even close to being in the same league as Madam Thatcher. She, too, would have made an excellent US president!

When the dust settles on the twentieth century, three people will stand atop all politicians who shaped the direction of the world for the better: Churchill, Reagan, and Thatcher. Winnie won WWII, and Reagan and Thatcher won the Cold War!

I know this doesn't relate to the prowess of the 7MM Rem Mag, but we might not be having this cybersation but for those who recognized the importance of freedom and were willing to do all that was necessary to defend it.

BTW, I always thought Clinton was a moron, and that we were lucky he was not president on 9/11. About the only comforting aspect of his presidency was that if the world had been in danger under his watch we were fortunate to have had Major and later Blair in power. It was extremely reassuring to hear Blair rally Britons to war after 9/11, citing the deaths of British citizens in the WTC at the hands of terrorists. He was at his best when he told terrorists that if they kill Britons anywhere in the world, he will hunt them down and kill them.

Get a 7MM Rem Mag and then get Wymoning's hunting regulations (http://gf.state.wy.us/) & you'll be good to go. Also, you might want to start acquiring deer & elk bonus points from as many western states as possible. Once you accumulate a few, odds become much more favorable in big game drawings. With about five or so from Colorado, you should get into an area with a high success rate. Also, check into Utah's deer bonus points. That state has some impressive mule deer, and you will need a long range cartridge like the 7MM Rem Mag there. Out here in California, about the only decent area is in the Eastern Sierra where you could run across a 30 inch mule deer buck. So I guess it wouldn't hurt to acquire bonus points here. Also, California is dense of black bear, so if you hunt here plan on getting a tag for one. A not so well-known state is Nevada. There are a few areas near Reno/Lake Tahoe with big deer. And after you harvest a 30 inch buck, you can recover your hunting expenses on a nearby craps table. :wink:

My Best,

Tom

 

[Asa Yam]

I have been advised here to go for a 6.5x55 Sako 75 Hunter as this will cover all species here and move up to a 7mm if I want to hunt bigger stuff later and also buy a separate target rifle.

Paul,
There is nothing wrong with using the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. As a hunting round, it is quite capable. As a target round, it is also quite good. A wide variety of quality factory ammunition is available, as are a wide selection of good powders and bullets. Don't let the "anemic" velocity of the round fool you either: 6.5mm projectiles have very high sectional densities due to thier length. Consequently, retained velocity downrange is quite good. See http://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/cart_datatable_2004.pdf for a ballistics table for ammunition manufactured by Sako.

Hunters in Scandanavia routinely use the 6.5x55 w/ 160 grain projectiles to down elk. Note that an elk in Scandanavia is what we in the US would a moose.