Indiana/Michigan Deer Rifles

[SJB358]

There are a few of you guys that are restricted to 1.8 cartridges in Indiana and I believe Michigan as well. Have any of you all trimmed a 444 Marlin, 375 Winchester or 45-70 back to 1.8" and loaded a heavy (long) bullet to the same COAL as a standard case?

I messed around a few months back, shortening a Starline case to 1.8", used a 405 cast bullet, over the same charge as my standard load. I only shot three, but they functioned fine.

Wondering if you all have tried any of this.

The 300 and 350's were a touch too short for the shortened case, but 405's worked fine when crimped with a Lee FCD. I'd also look to see if you could use a powder like H322 or H335 which would be sorta supportive of the bullet as well, but I can't see how this would be any less legal for you than any other type of wildcat being made up.

Seems like a good way to use them good old 45-70's and 444's for your deer hunting and still get great speeds and power on target. Not that a 44 mag or 45 Long Colt is underpowered, but the 444/45-70 would offer a little extra.

I'd probably scrub the chambers a little more to make sure you didn't develop a carbon ring (sort of a 38 Special in a 357 Mag deal)..

Sorry, the thought just sorta tripped in my brain..

 

[truck driver]

I seem to remember a 2" .458 win mag that was developed for use in Alaska.
But a 1.8" 45-70 with a 405gr hard cast bullet would be a thumper.
I just jumped over to search the 405 Winchester round and it could also be shortened by just a little over .60" and could be interesting.

 

[JD338]

Good idea Scotty. I'll take a closer look at the 45-70 for next year.

JD338

 

[Clintsfolly]

I have done the short case thing with the 450Marlin. My rifle is a savage 110LH custom with a 26"Douglas barrel. My brother and I put this to gather for me as a cast shooter6-8 yrs ago. After using a small cutoff saw I trimmed my cases to 1.790 . Then annealed them, resized and belled. As a bullet caster I had a 500gr rngc mold that I made up some with 50/50 WW/22RL. I used this to get more case grip and length to get into the lands. I used the same C.o.l. Of my full length case load. With no data that I found for this weight I used 45/70 data as a starting point. My first and only powder to try at this point was Varget. The starting load was shot and used to adjust the scope after loading more and running close on time for season. I found the my first load will put 3 shots in 2" at a 100yds and by using the first dot in the LR scope hit dead on at 200yds. Have not shot it on paper at 200yds but the last 8 shot all hit the center of a 12" gong with 3 shooter. As of this time I have not used it to take game but have a short season coming end of the month. Hope this helps those that want to go down the short case road . Long live the 450Marlin x1.8. Having fun Clint

 

[SJB358]

Great info Clint.

 

[Dr. Vette]

One of my patients happened to be at the shooting range when I stopped in a couple of weeks ago. He had a custom shortened .358 throated 325WSM made just for Indiana deer hunting. Doing some net searching shows that even this short fat cartridge doesn't endow huge speed on the bullet.

Oh how I wish the 35 Rem/30-30/32 Special could be used. I would venture they are just as safe - and just as ballistically challenged - as some of the wildcats that IN and now MI are getting.

 

[Thebear_78]

I have seen the 358 SFB (short, fat, bastard) that was a 25 wssm necked out to 358. Ballistic ally similar to just a tad faster than the 35 rem not quite a 358 win. I would think that a 325 wsm parent would be too long

 

[SJB358]

I have seen the 358 SFB (short, fat, bastard) that was a 25 wssm necked out to 358. Ballistic ally similar to just a tad faster than the 35 rem not quite a 358 win. I would think that a 325 wsm parent would be too long

I saw some of the work done with the 358 WSSM and it looked pretty darned good like TBear mentioned. Sorta like a 358 Winchester..

 

[truck driver]

Since this thread started I have been looking at the different short rounds developed for the AR and it is interesting what has been developed. I also looked at the father of the 7.62 NATO round ( 300 Savage ) and found it is only .076" too long to meet the 1.80" length but no one has done any work with it and seems like it could be shortened up to make the case length required.

 

[SJB358]

Since this thread started I have been looking at the different short rounds developed for the AR and it is interesting what has been developed. I also looked at the father of the 7.62 NATO round ( 300 Savage ) and found it is only .076" too long to meet the 1.80" length but no one has done any work with it and seems like it could be shortened up to make the case length required.

Most of the states require a .357 caliber minimum..

 

[truck driver]

I could see necking the shortened 300 savage up to .358 and blowing the shoulder out to 40 degrees I believe Ackley did a 300 AI.

 

[Thebear_78]

Would be easier to cut down a 35 remington and load bullets out to make up the difference

 

[Thebear_78]

The 300 savage already had a pretty sharp shoulders and minimal taper I just don't see it as a good candidate to be improved, you would need to push the shoulder back quite a bit to give you a longer neck for the 358 bullets too. The 300 sac has a pretty short neck that would only get shorter after you opened them up to 358

300 savage AI on the left

 

[Thebear_78]

You run out of powder space really quick when shortening these rounds, that's why people have gone to fatter cartridges for Indiana legal rifles

 

[Clintsfolly]

Michigan rule say straight wall case. Clint

 

[Thebear_78]

A Shortened 444 marlin might fit the bill nicely. Kinds be like a 445 super super magnum!

It would likely work better than a 45/70 because there are better lighter bullets available for it in the 200-265gr range

 

[Dr. Vette]

I have seen the 358 SFB (short, fat, bastard) that was a 25 wssm necked out to 358. Ballistic ally similar to just a tad faster than the 35 rem not quite a 358 win. I would think that a 325 wsm parent would be too long

OK, may have started with a WSSM case. Interesting that some of the forums describe starting with a WSM case...?

In any event, I was surprised how little speed was gained.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

dtech builds AR's in 358 wssm for indy deer hunting, whats wrong with the 458 socom its basicly a mid-level 45/70 clone in an AR, also the 450 bushy, 454 casull, 357 max., 50 AE, lots of options out there
RR

 

[Clintsfolly]

In my case I wanted to use a rifle that I had and like without changing it. Clint

 

[Dwh7271]

If 1.8" is the case length number, why not just chamber one for a 460 S & W? Bet that would be a thumper although probably not exactly a long range rig. :grin: If it's OAL at 1.8", excuse the post!

The basic dimensions of the new .460 Magnum are as follows: bullet diameter .454", rim diameter .520", case diameter .478", overall case length 1.800", cartridge overall length (COL) 2.300". The official SAAMI maximum average pressure (MAP) is 65,000 psi!