Let's buy the perfect out west gun.

[pharmseller]

Get a tikka in 7mm mag or 300 win. Done

You’re right about the Tikka but wrong about the cartridge.

7mm-08.

Deer, elk, antelope, all have fallen quickly (surprisingly so, in the case of multiple bulls) to a single well-placed shot.




P

You're killing me.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

If we called it the 7mm-08 Bee you’d probably buy one.



P

 

[Songdog]

Last year, my 12 year old son drew his first big game tags. When they arrived, I handed him some loading manuals, and some old Rifle Magazines.... and charged him with choosing a caliber for his new “big game” rifle. The critters would be: black bear, antelope, deer, and elk.... and I gave him a short list of suggestions. After a week or so.... he decided on a Tikka in 7/08. I was actually pretty impressed with his research and justification for his decision. The first round he ever fired out of that rifle clobbered a big antelope buck.

Now, he’s got his little brother (11) convinced that he should get the same rifle.... so they can “share bullets”. He doesn’t know it.... but it’s sitting in my closet just waiting for him to pass hunter’s safety.

I betcha those boys could do all their hunting for the rest of their lives with those rifles.

Tikka 7/08 covers A LOT of bases....

 

[SJB358]

Last year, my 12 year old son drew his first big game tags. When they arrived, I handed him some loading manuals, and some old Rifle Magazines.... and charged him with choosing a caliber for his new “big game” rifle. The critters would be: black bear, antelope, deer, and elk.... and I gave him a short list of suggestions. After a week or so.... he decided on a Tikka in 7/08. I was actually pretty impressed with his research and justification for his decision. The first round he ever fired out of that rifle clobbered a big antelope buck.

Now, he’s got his little brother (11) convinced that he should get the same rifle.... so they can “share bullets”. He doesn’t know it.... but it’s sitting in my closet just waiting for him to pass hunter’s safety.

I betcha those boys could do all their hunting for the rest of their lives with those rifles.

Tikka 7/08 covers A LOT of bases....

I’d agree with that myself. My daughter has a 7-08 Tikka as well. She wouldn’t likely need much else.

Good deal SD, way to go Dad!

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

A 7/08 isnt a bad choice, if you were to limit your shots to 500 yards or so...Not quite what I'm looking for in an out west rifle, but it works great for the women and kids

 

[Songdog]

99.9% of people should be limiting their hunting shots to well under 500 yards.... whether it’s out West.... or anywhere else in the world.

Having said that.... we’ve pounded some steel with Will’s rifle out past 1/2 mile.... with relative ease.... and that was shooting factory Nosler 120 NBT loads.

I’ve shot 162 Amax at 2700+ FPS out of a couple different rifles..... put 162/2700/.625 in your Ballistic calculator and smoke it..... then tell me that’s only a “500 yard cartridge for women and kids”.... seriously, it’s a freaking HAMMER for only 45 grains of powder.

Jorey.... I’d love to hear about your experience with the 7/08 at longer ranges.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I dont really shoot a 7/08 ,other than my wifes kimber lightweight, which isnt a LR rifle or set up for it. Shoots 150g NBTs at 2825fps which makes a nice 500 yard hunting rifle. If I had my own 7/08, I would definitely shoot the 162g ELDMs and itd be a nice 1K steel plinker, but as a big game hunting round, it would still be limited to about 800 max with target bullets based off impact velocity and energy, or 500-600 with NBTs or ABs. Not a bad round like I said, otherwise I wouldnt have picked it for the wife, but it's not something I would personally use for a 1 do all hunting rifle out west where I've killed 75% of my elk between 500-1100 yards. I'd rather keep my 7 or 300 Mags anyday. Im a huge fan of all 7mms, I own a 280 and a 7-300 mag currently, owned several great 7 Rem Mags, 7 STWs, 7 RUMs and shot thousands of rounds between them all at long range. To each their own, but I'm more than capable of killing deer and elk past 500, as are several others in the world, and I wont be limited by the caliber at the end of the day when it comes to feeding the family for a year is all. The 7/08 falls just a bit short on the thump needed (in my personal opinion anyway) past about 600 yards for elk. It's still a damn good, efficient round, but it still has its limitations in the field for some. At the end of the day, it comes down to impact velocity and energy based on how far you want to kill things...

 

[Songdog]

I hear you.... and my vote for all-around NA big game round is the 7 RM all day long. But only if you can shoot it.... and most folks just can’t, at least not in a hunting weight rig.

I know you can make hits dude, it’s not tough to read that sign..... but you truly are in that .1% of guys who can use that extra HP at 1/2 mile+.... and it may be even less than that.

Of all the guys who hunt “out West” every year..... how many do you think are capable of hitting a 12” round plate.... at 600 yards.... cold-bore.... across a canyon.... in a 6-9mph varying wind from 2:00.... laying in the dirt? 1 in 1000 sounds about right to me. I’ve seen it hundreds of times.... there’s a reason we called the 12” gong at 600 the “Plate of Humble Pie”.... I won enough money watching people miss that plate.... to keep me in powder for years.

I know a lot of dudes who are fully capable of making hits well into 4-digit yardages.... almost all of them don’t like shooting at elk over about 600ish. Primarily because of the consequences of a bad “hit”. Been there... done that.... got the scars to prove it.

Heck, I like ringing steel, and shooting rocks far beyond what I’d ever shoot at a critter.... but when the chips really are down, and a bad hit could mean a two-day pack-out from hell.... I’ve learned that discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I can agree on all that! It's a lot different in the field, then on a known range for sure. It's also our responsibility to make the best decision based on our individual skills to either make the shot or pass. I'm also a huge believer and fan of muzzle brakes to be able to practice a lot with the magnums on the range, so you can be proficient with them, and spot your own shots. I personally wont take a shot past 800 on deer, or elk at 1K unless its broadside, and the wind is pretty steady at 10 mph or less, and able to lay prone with a rear rest of some sort, like a coat or backpack. I'm not a fan of chasing wounded elk where we hunt either, they always find the steepest, darkest hole to go, and it's already half a day to days pack to begin with. I regularly have to shoot with 20 mph winds out on my range because of where I live (eastern oregon) and the range is literally right next to wind mills. The wind ALWAYS blows up there. A guy can get pretty decent at shooting in the wind that way and learn a lot. It also helps to have that private range out to 1500 yards, 15 minutes from the house, to hone those skills and shoot several times a week. That humble pie plate sounds like a nice way to make a little extra money for sure haha. I'd definitely play along If we are talking your average joe who maybe shoots 2 or 3 times a year to check zero, I'd say 1 in a 1000 is a fair number. If we're talking LR shooters/hunters who shoot more in 1 day, than they do all year, I'd cut that number significantly down. Comparing apples and oranges at that point, but it's pretty doable on a regular basis for guys like you and I. Always nice to have a good discussion without any hard feelings. Now, back to the bench and the 240 WBY for some dogs

 

[SJB358]

Great topic. I’d say I’m firmly in the big 7 or 300 camp myself for elk. I do think a little 7 set up with something slippery around 2700 is pretty wicked stuff though. I’m planning to grab a couple M+ magazines for my daughters 7-08 and trying the 162 ELD from it. Just to see what it’ll do.

 

[Songdog]

I’ve got a couple of the M-mags here Scotty.... to do just that. We’ll have to compare notes.... once I get around to working on a 162 load.

Funny how all these “out West” topics always seem to migrate to “elk at 1000 yards”.... thanks a lot Gunworks and Best of the West. Truth is.... I’d still venture that 90% of shots on big game.... West of the Mighty Mississip’... are inside 300 yards.

Jorey.... I used to have some notes on that 12” plate... the results, even from excellent shooters... would surprise you. I think first shot hits, with good shooters, were somewhere around 75%.... with random dudes shooting random rigs.... it was literally about 1 in 100.

I hear you (pun intended) on the muzzle brakes.... but dang do I hate those things! Anymore, I shoot almost everything suppressed.

We shot a lot in 10-20 mph winds on the plains of CO.... you learn real quick that wind, not “drop”, is the ultimate protagonist.

 

[cloverleaf]

"If we called it the 7mm-08 Bee you’d probably buy one."

You mean there isnt one....???!!!! :lol: CL

 

[Dr. Vette]

Of all the guys who hunt “out West” every year..... how many do you think are capable of hitting a 12” round plate.... at 600 yards.... cold-bore.... across a canyon.... in a 6-9mph varying wind from 2:00.... laying in the dirt? 1 in 1000 sounds about right to me. I’ve seen it hundreds of times.... there’s a reason we called the 12” gong at 600 the “Plate of Humble Pie”.... I won enough money watching people miss that plate.... to keep me in powder for years.

I agree. Very few.

Unless you practice for it, you won't be able to make that shot.
And even then it's extremely difficult.

 

[Elkman]

I live by this quote, "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." We have too many hunters who are focused on "hitting" the animal, when the focus should be on a clean kill. I have lost a few animals, in my 55 years in the field, one was with an 06, two with a 300 WM, one with a 7mm Mashburn, one with an arrow and last but not least one with a 45 caliber pistol. There may be a couple of others, but these stand out. As I have said before, just hitting the animal isn't enough, killing it cleanly is the objective.

 

[Blkram]

I live by this quote, "You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." We have too many hunters who are focused on "hitting" the animal, when the focus should be on a clean kill. I have lost a few animals, in my 55 years in the field, one was with an 06, two with a 300 WM, one with a 7mm Mashburn, one with an arrow and last but not least one with a 45 caliber pistol. There may be a couple of others, but these stand out. As I have said before, just hitting the animal isn't enough, killing it cleanly is the objective.

Well said!

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Always better to have enough gun, than not enough!

 

[6.5_sWv]

Lots of good suggestions and as someone pointed out already, much can be said about 2 important things.
1. Shot Placement
2. Bullet choice.
I believe they both go hand in hand.
Assuming that your friend can shoot decently, and assuming he or you can handload it will open many more options up to him.

All that being said, if I were in your buddies shoes Id buy a 280 Ackley Improved and be done with it. It'll kill cleanly any animal in North America and several plains animals in Africa. Its flat shooting, only kills on the business end, is a touch slower than the 7mm mag, and if in a pinch you can fire standard 280 Rem ammo.

 

[cloverleaf]

Honestly, I dont practice enough. Thats the fact. Shooting off the bench at paper is not seeing a buck at 100 yds, (or three or six hundred...) he's looking at you and getting ready to leave the country... he about three stots or six steps away from being down a draw or into the brush... It all has to come together or you have to decide to wait. Even if in theroy, you have the time and you dont worry about hold over, there's always drift. All those decisions, computations and adjustments have to happen and in my limited experience it dosent matter much whether I'm using my 250 Savage, Dads 7mm Mag, or my 12 ga. slug gun. (no really- it dosent matter that much...) its about the decision, the computation, the muscle memory, knowing where that bullet is gonna go. The most significant thing I had to learn to start being successful hunting, was to pick a spot on the animal, find a way to keep it there, and "think" that bullet to the spot, period. Not to hit the animal, but hit the spot. If I knew my rifle and round well enough, Every time Ive done all those things successfully, the critter has fallen down. When I miss, which I do frequently, or muff a shot its because I didnt do those things... "12 inch plate at 600" ya, maybe I could some of the time.

Sorry I'll get off the pulpit... Nothing says that you cant have fun discussing the various merrits of one rifle/ Cal over another, lord knows I still do it all the time. Find one fits you and you enjoy carrying, for whatever reason and shoot the heck out of it, and you will have a succesful "western rifle". CL

 

[diverdown]

Elkman, that is one of the most accurate statements ever to come across this forum.. I have seen that exact issue on a number of occasions and it definitely holds true.

 

[mjcmichigan]

Elkman, that is one of the most accurate statements ever to come across this forum.. I have seen that exact issue on a number of occasions and it definitely holds true.

Ditto to that. It’s about clean kills and recovery of the animals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Songdog]

I’ll respectfully, but whole-heartedly, disagree.... it DOESN’T “hold true”..... a bullet in the grass bag is a bullet in the grass bag.... it matters little if it’s .243 or .338. There is no “enough gun” to reliably kill stuff with poor shot placement... period. Bigger guns don’t seem to make much difference on bad hits.... big guns just seem to make more bad hits (recoil and potential shooter error go hand in hand).

Furthermore..... starting bullets in a bad place, intending for them to end up in a good place.... is a recipe for long tracking jobs and hellish pack outs. For example: if you’re aiming at the lift hip, trying to drive it through all the clockwork and into the right shoulder... that starts the bullet out a long ways from where it needs to do the bulk of its destruction. I don’t need a rifle that will run a bullet through an elk lengthwise..... because I’m not going to try to shoot through one lengthwise. BUT... I do need one that can handle breaking an elk humerus bone and keep on truck in’.... because I am likely to encounter an elk humerus, whether intentionally or unintentionally, because I’m trying to shoot them very close to where that bone is typically located.

Finally.... bullet technology has come a LONG way.... we no longer have to rely on bullet mass.... we can hedge our bets with bullet construction. So.... the old adage of “use enough gun” is still valid... bullets and cartridges are so good now.... that a lot more rounds can be considered “enough gun”.

Shoot the biggest round you can reliable shoot, put a bullet in it that’s appropriate for the task at hand, and be judicious with shot placement.... if that’s not “enough gun”.... then hunt something else.