Lever action rifle question

[Thankful Otter]

thanks again everyone for taking the time ti share your thoughts with me

Rodger, sent you a pm

Brooke, I just finished reading your ( and your uncle's) report, thank you, excellent information and it helps calm some of my concern about recoil.

Bear, Hodgeman, Scotty --- your load for bear defense, from two feet to twenty feet,

 

[SJB358]

thanks again everyone for taking the time ti share your thoughts with me

Rodger, sent you a pm

Brooke, I just finished reading your ( and your uncle's) report, thank you, excellent information and it helps calm some of my concern about recoil.

Bear, Hodgeman, Scotty --- your load for bear defense, from two feet to twenty feet,

Never had to defend myself from a bear with it but Guys load with the 425 PDJ at 1850 with H322 is likely to leave a mark....

 

[Anonymous]

Buckshot is almost without merit when it comes to bears, the only slug I would trust would be brenneke black magic hard cast slug. The m2 mentioned by hodgman would be a good one, but still a poor replacement for a rifle
k

Yeah- I totally agree with that. The buckshot is for the two legged variety of predators around the house or camp..not what I'd tangle with a griz with by choice. At extremely close range, buckshot would be better than a sharp stick, but a slug would be far better. For out and about in the woods, Brenneke slugs is what i carry around in it.

But in agreement with Bear's comment- the only time I carry the shotgun is when I'm already carrying the shotgun for something else- duck hunting or ptarmigan hunting and the like. Any other time I just pack a rifle...typically a .300WSM or a light .308WIN. I tend to think of a slug gun as a clumsy, short range rifle...one of the lever guns we've been discussing would be far more effective.

As a note- an acquaintance of mine decked a 6' black bear on Thurs. night getting into his generator shed...25' with a 45-70. One and done.

If I've got to DRT a bear...I'd rather have a rifle than anything else shy of a tank.

 

[Europe]

Cheyenne, sent some emails and even made a long distance call or two as I was curious about the new marlin

The good news is everyone likes it-----a lot----so dont run out and buy that BHA until you do more research into the 45/70 marlin modern day hunter. It comes from their custom shop --18 inch barrel and holds 6 rounds--the bad news is it is over 2000 dollars but so is the BHA.

My son loves the BHA, but admits the new marlin has a lot of merit and should be considered.

My son says that the BHA does have a bit of recoil, but you can easily shoot anything out to 200 yards if you do your part. He would not get the Wild West Gun, but would not hesitate to get the new modern day marlin, or whatever they call it the one that was released this year or the BHA.

Hodgeman and Bear make some excellent points about slugs---but I am guessing that you are asking about them only because you may be in a position soon where you may be required to have/use one instead of a rifle---????

Hodgeman, do you know whether or not fish and game officers in Alaska are required to use a slug gun on a bear

 

[Anonymous]

Hodgeman and Bear make some excellent points about slugs---but I am guessing that you are asking about them only because you may be in a position soon where you may be required to have/use one instead of a rifle---????

Hodgeman, do you know whether or not fish and game officers in Alaska are required to use a slug gun on a bear

The State Troopers I know are issued Remington 870s with aperture sights and Brenneke slugs for dispatching large mammals. I believe some are also issued .375 bolt action rifles, but none of the ones I know have one. With an aperture sight- the range of a shotgun slug gets extended a fair bit- in a professional capacity, it's not a bad tool for bear protection at all.

 

[Thebear_78]

Not required but many due as their issues one. 3" brenneke black magic slugs. I know several who carry their own rifles.

The 405gr kodiak bonded bullet at 1900fps using starling brass and H322 was my load of choice. It was very effective.


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[Europe]

I hope whoever you are, you are proud of yourself. Brooke makes a post and you make fun of her and she deletes it. I wish to god she would give me your name as I would post it here for everyone to see, so help me god

Back to the thread. Brooke and Hodgeman are correct. In Brookes last post that she deleted, she was agreeing with Hodgeman about the action of the BHA lever. It is more in line with the 71 action and whether it is a better action than the Marlin can be debated. I think it is and if I understand Hodgeman he also likes it. So if that is important to you cheyenne, it is something to consider.

I do like the "trapper" Marlin with a 16 inch barrel and that would also work real well for you. But the BHA gets my vote over the Marlin, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Marlin and the 45/70 has proven itself over and over and over again.

Hodgeman, and Bear78----If time permits, please give us your thoughts about the action of the BHA, ---better than the Marlin, worse, same or it depends ?

 

[Thebear_78]

I must have missed the post but hope brook will put it back up. I've noticed a few posts lately that needed challenged, we need to keep the negative crap off this forum.

As to the BHA, it is very nice. With a cool factor off the charts. More similar to the 86 Winchester than the 71, but I'm sure more familiar to the 71 than the Marlin.

The Marlin 1895 isn't as strong but it's fine for the 45/70. It's handy, better selection of ammo, and a lot better after market accessories. It's also quite a bit cheaper and can be had in stainless. A hard used rifle that will be in the elements can use the added weather resistance of stainless steel.

There is really no wrong choice between the two. I'm either would serve her very well.

If money was of no consequence that BHA trapper with the 16" barrel looks really sweet. My only reservation is running those super high pressure cartridges in a lever. I'm sure the BHA is plenty strong enough to handle it, but when compared to low pressure rounds that are generally in the levers it makes one wonder.

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[Anonymous]

Hodgeman, and Bear78----If time permits, please give us your thoughts about the action of the BHA, ---better than the Marlin, worse, same or it depends ?

I think "it depends"..."better" is more a matter of taste than function.

The Marlin is far easier to mount optics on with a flat top. But for someone already used to a M71, the BHA is going to be more familiar feeling and (IMHO)...smoother than the Marlin and without that goofy and pointless push button safety.

I also think the BHA is manufactured to a tighter set of tolerances and is just a better grade of fit and finish (at twice the price of a typical SBL, of course). Pretty typical of anything built in the hundreds per annum versus the many thousands per annum. The SBL is going to be more affordable. The "Modern Hunter" version doesn't appear to add any real utility to the rifle except aesthetics so I probably wouldn't pick it over a regular SBL and just pocket the extra cash.

They'd both do the job just fine (and already have for several folks I know), it's just a matter of figuring out the list of features and attributes you want- for me, the BHA looks nicer, feels nicer and since I don't want to scope any lever gun... I'm fine with the limitations of the 1886/M71 design in that regard. As far as cartridges go... the 500S&W in a rifle barrel has plenty of power over what I'd consider the practical range of the rifle...same with the 45-70 so the cartridges are a wash to me.

 

[Thebear_78]

I can't disagree with anything hogeman said!


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[maverick2]

I must have missed the post but hope brook will put it back up. I've noticed a few posts lately that needed challenged, we need to keep the negative crap off this forum.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I don't care if it's in a public forum post or a PM, if there's someone out there targeting anyone else with some ill-intended crap, I'd prefer that the offender be tossed/blackballed. No warnings, no second chances. Send a copy of the offensive post/PM to a moderator and request some help.

 

[35 Whelen]

The US Forest Service did an extensive study on the best set up for bear protection at close quarters. After both researching effectiveness of the various calibers on Brown Bears in Alaska and the person's ability to shoot the bear correctly,( this was a huge factor) because most folks do get hyper excited and do some pretty interesting things at crunch time. They concluded the 12ga shotgun with 3" OO Buckshot was "the best choice". And became standard issue. I have personally had to shoot 2 bears with a 12ga shotgun at very close range: one that actually Charged myself and my Fisherman. And one that pushed a Fisherman out onto a rock in the middle of a swift river; where he then tryed to get him to jump from the Rock by
Poping his teeth at him from about 10 ft. I had to Wade right out to the bear for fear of hitting the client to get him to leave the client to come for me........... In both cases I shot them at a out 10 yds.....both were Medium sized Brownies; 6/700 lb animals. Both died Instantly with a shot to the side of the head...........

 

[Thebear_78]

I couldn't disagree more with the use of buckshot! Buckshot is only effective at very close range less than 10 yards, if it's far enough away to spread out it simply won't penetrate. A hard slug is vastly superior to buckshot in any situation, a large bore rifle is superior to any slug.

I'm glad it worked for you but your dramatically limiting your effectiveness with buckshot. At handshaking close even birdshot can effectively stop a bear. Anecdotally I know of two bears killed with birdshot. One a brown bear shot with 3" BBs while in the boat with a duck hunter, the other was a 2 3/4" light load of 7.5s at point blank when a griz chased a bird dog back into a grouse hunters lap. They got lucky.

I know of several bears that took multiple hits with buckshot only to be killed by a rifle. One I witnessed first hand, took several hits at under 25 yards. Then shit with 30/06 and finally put down with 375 H&H. When skinned none of the buckshot made it past the shoulders, none broke bone, several pellets stuck in the neck muscle.

None of the bear guards, fish and game, or troopers I know carry buck shot. They all use the brenneke black magic. Crackers, beanbags, and slugs.


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[truck driver]

I must have missed the post but hope brook will put it back up. I've noticed a few posts lately that needed challenged, we need to keep the negative crap off this forum.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I don't care if it's in a public forum post or a PM, if there's someone out there targeting anyone else with some ill-intended crap, I'd prefer that the offender be tossed/blackballed. No warnings, no second chances. Send a copy of the offensive post/PM to a moderator and request some help.

Brooke please send the idiots name that is heckling you I will have a ball at his expense and he may even get some Jail Time for Cyber stalking and believe me The FBI just loves to get a hold of Cyber Criminals.

 

[hunternyny]

Bear, as a flat lander, I am curious on when one decides. Slugs, Bean Bags, Crackers, or a rifle. I am serious by the way, as someone who has never stared down a bear, isn't it to late to change from one to another once the contest begins. How do you decide which to take with you or I guess I am asking what circumstances do you envision when you say I will take ???? with me today

 

[Thebear_78]

Bear guards regularly carry the non lethal to ward off trouble makers. These are non life threatening situations. These are preventative measures to keep a dangerous situation from happening. They use them a lot on polar bears. For normal defensive carry they keep them loaded with the slugs.

They carry a mix of 375 H&H and 12ga pumps. Normally the more experienced reach for the rifles.


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[salmonchaser]

Bear, as a flat lander, I am curious on when one decides. Slugs, Bean Bags, Crackers, or a rifle. I am serious by the way, as someone who has never stared down a bear, isn't it to late to change from one to another once the contest begins. How do you decide which to take with you or I guess I am asking what circumstances do you envision when you say I will take ???? with me today

I know you asked "Bear" but I'm waiting, yet again, on Peninsula Air.
My personal preference is to carry a rifle instead of a shotgun. I've carried a 450 Bushmaster, 338; 375; 45/70 and a variety of 12ga shotguns.
We are all subject to our experience, I was six when dad shot a Grizz in the face with a load of buckshot. A lot of "old school" guides still believe in the principle of loading buckshot first. The only time it works however is very close and coming straight in at distance measured in feet.
That being said I like my Marlin 45/70. I practice with it a lot and am comfortable snapping off a quick shot.
We do keep one shot gun loaded with been bags. A Grizz walking through camp on the beach goes through unmolested. A bear they gets curious gets whacked on the butt.
I think you are correct in your thinking, once the game has started I wouldn't want to be changing loads. We don't deploy the bean bags without lethal cover for example.

 

[Thankful Otter]

John

in reference to Polar Bears, we dont use spray, but do use what we call the three slug system that shoots a cracker, plastic and then lead. We try to have someone with us with a rifle or after the three shoots we drop the shotgun and swing the rifle around and use it. I have not personally ever used buckshot but have heard of others who have. some of them are still alive. Dogs are also a big help and I take my hunting dog with me everywhere I go. He works as an early alarm system as well as a distractor, if required.

I know black bears are suppose to be less aggressive than browns, but we have had more tense moments with the blacks and whites than with the browns, but all bears are unpredictable and one needs to show them the respect they deserve.

Hodgeman, Bear78, Brooke, April, thanks for the discussion regarding the action. My grandfather is going to visit BHA before a decision is made.

Bear, that 338 is pretty slick, do you think you will be able to snag it ? Someone had an interesting imagination when they put that one together.

Hodgeman, is Alaska Bullet works still in business ?

 

[35 Whelen]

yukon254
Member

Join Date
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buck:
Interesting post by an old Yukon Guide few years back on the Alaska Outdoors forum: As follows;


AKK2AZ; I could i suppose ask you if you have ever used buckshot on a grizzly in a life or death situation?? I have and I dont care what you paper tests of any kind tell you, you are wrong. I have read it so many times on here Im sick of it, its bad/false info. I was using a winchester defender 12 gauge with buckshot (went in after a gutshot grizzly, it was wounded by a 45/70) she came from maybe 15 yards, not sure as she came very fast. I do know this one shot with the buckshot at pointblank range almost took her head off. As a matter of fact it was so bad the taxidermist decided he couldnt salvage the hide. I shoot more than most and have been guiding for many years and I doubt with anything else I could have stopped that bear it happened just to fast. I will give you this Buck is only good at very close range but as we all know bears are not dangerous until they are very close!
End quote.
PS. This exactly mirrors my experience using 3" 00 Buckshot, in both cases it basically tore half of the side of the bears head off........ At 20/25 ft it is wicked. Though realisticly most folks are never going to go there. Our biggest problem was always the hunters wanting to shoot from toooofar away!
Check out where the old 45/70 came in on the Forest Service short range tests? Then find the 06 with 220gr![attachment=0]

 

[Thebear_78]

At the ranges your talking about, 10 yards and under, your spread is the size of a baseball. Any hit with that would have been a hit with the slug. A hit that would have been just as effective or more so than the buckshot. As mentioned before even birdshot can be effective at close enough range. Why limit yourself right from the get go.

Also bushot is only effective at very close range and only on a shot where the bear is facing you when feet away. At that point it might be too late. Very often you might be engaging a bear that might be attacking a partner or distracted by your dog, I want something that will penetrate from those angles.

I'm not trying to piss on your experience. I'm glad it worked for you but I've seen first hand how ineffective buckshot can be. I know a dozen different big game and bear guides, not one of them use a shotgun. These guys track wounded bears regularly, all of them carry rifles. 338, 375, 416, 458 bolts and 45/70, 450, and 500 Alaskan in leverguns.

A shotgun would never be my first choice and I would never carry buckshot. The soft foster style slugs are a poor choice too. Only a hard slug like the brenneke, or possibly one of the copper sabot slugs or full bore hard cast slugs out of a rifled barrel, like the Dixie terminator.


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