Lever action rifle question

[SJB358]

No dog in this fight but just like rifle bullet's, there are a few different kinds of buckshot. Having shot a bunch of deer with buckshot and over the past 5 years at our local club I have seen a lot of deer (probably about a 100 deer a year on average) taken with buckshot. The difference between Hevishot of copper plated lead is drastically different than plain old lead. I have personally taken decent sized bucks at the 40-50 yard mark with my gun with the Winchester 3.5" 00 Supreme loads. Those will blow through front legs on a normal 130-160lb buck. It is actually quite amazing. I have seen the plain old lead not even crack the front scapula with 3" 12 00 at 25-30 yards.

I fully understand that you all are talking bear defense guns, but I just wanted to throw out my experience using and observing a bunch of buckshot loads. I see it every fall, a guy buys a huge box of lead shotgun 3" mags and stuffs them in his 1100/11-87 or whatever and BLAZES at deer. I would doubt a bunch of these fellas ever put them on a pattern board to actually see what happens, but most of the shots are pretty short, under 25-30 yards, so they will kill deer, but it usually takes a few shots. The good stuff will dump deer with a good patterning shotgun.

Now, saying that, if I had a choice, I'd be much happier with my 45-70 loaded for bear..

 

[Thebear_78]

Bear, that 338 is pretty slick, do you think you will be able to snag it ? Someone had an interesting imagination when they put that one together.

Hodgeman, is Alaska Bullet works still in business ?

Alaska Bullet Works Inc
9978 Crazy Horse Dr
Juneau, AK 99801
(907) 789-3834

This is the last contact info I had from them. It's been a while but you can try to call them. There is a local shop in anchorage that always had some. I can check if you want.

I thought that little savage 99 in 338 federal would be right up your alley. I've been trying to avoid buying it but it's very intriguing. Nitrided to handle the weather and no worry of collector value. Ballistically similar to you 348. I'll see how the auction goes, it would make a great camp/truck/boat gun.

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[Guy Miner]

"I have not personally ever used buckshot but have heard of others who have. some of them are still alive"

That is a great sentence! :grin: Brought a smile to my face. Thanks Otter!

Re lever rifles, I remembered that there's a very under-employed .308 Browning BLR in my safe... One of the old steel-receiver, Belgian made rifles. It hasn't hunted in at least a decade! Hmmm...

Guy

 

[35 Whelen]

:arrow: Here is a fella ; I bet Cheyenne has "heard of" quoting his experience with Buckshot. Which was actually quite extensive??? He was simply explaining the advantages of # 1 buckshot.
Quote from CAPSTICK:
"The difference lies in the simple and astonishingly obvious fact that at .33 caliber, 00 buck is so large in the shell that there is much wasted space that could otherwise be filled with lead if the bearing surfaces of the big, round pellets didn't have to come into contact with each other. But they must. No. 1 buck is .30 caliber, only ten percent less in diameter than 00 buck and but thirteen grains per pellet lighter. However, because of the way the pellet mass fits into the shotshell, the same shell can fire an incredible seventy-five percent more pellets than the Magnum 00 load! What this means is that when you need help in a big way, you're launching eight hundred grains of lead at better than three thousand foot-pounds at the muzzle with No. 1 buck compared with a bit over six hundred grains and not quite twenty-four hundred foot-pounds with the 00 buck. If you don't reckon that can make a significant difference, you've never had something try to eat you.
One might also BEAR in mind that eight hundred grains of lead in a swarm has the individual pellet impact area of an umbrella, for even though still in a solid mass at more or less ten yards, it covers a circular saturation point of about a 7-inch circle. Eight hundred grains, remember, equals a .458 PLUS a .375 at point blank, and you've got two barrels of the stuff, minimum."

HIJACKED from Peter Capstick.. anyone care to compare their vast experience with dangerous game at close quarters to this guy?????
That should bring a smile to almost any face............

 

[Europe]

thanks Guy that sentence almost slipped under the radar--love it

we need to buy cheyenne ( and maybe earle ) a "mare's leg" 12 gauge---pistol grip, shot barrel, lever action.

Dr Mike, I remember thinking that Steve McQueen guy was pretty cute--you probably didn't have that reaction but I bet you remember his so-called sidearm

I have to admit that I fall on both sides of this discussion. If the shotgun is in the bears mouth when you pull the trigger, yes it will kill him. Do I want to be the one saying I did this, no.

Back to the original question. I like the BHA for a variety of reasons and think you would as well Cheyenne, however as I have already said the Marlin will also work and has over and over and over and I even like hodgemans idea about the Henry.

those of you who have shot grizzlies at close range--Dr Mike, Gil, Salmonchaser, Earle, Hodgeman, Bear78---on your closest encounter with the grizzly, that ended with him being dead, what did you use ? If you gentlemen were setting out to hunt a coastal Grizzly today, what would you carry ?

Earle, you made a post while I was typing. I dont think there is any doubt that if one is close enough that buckshot will blow the head off of a bear and almost anything else for that matter. Some do also track wounded leopards with a shotgun. I have no personal desire to do either ( grizzly or leopard with a shotgun ) I had read the article you posted before and it makes sense. I certainly can not argue with Capstick, he has been there and done that for sure. Thanks for the post and article.

I was once stalked and almost attacked by a football player waaaaaaaaay back when I was a cheerleader and my father mentioned bacon rhine's --you youngsters will not understand that one

 

[Thebear_78]

To his point anyone who thinks a load of #1 buck is equal in effectiveness of a 458 and a 375 is out of his mind! You don't see many pro hunters carrying shotguns when backing up the big 5 either.


I see your digging in here. I'm not interested in a pissing match. Your free to carry what you want. For your sake I hope it's effective



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[DrMike]

April,

You are correct that I did not consider McQueen cute at all. Funny, that. :shock: Never stalked by a football player, either. I was stalked by a wanna' be cheerleader on one occasion. Now, that was scary.

I do like lever guns when working up close and personal with a bear. I suspect the rationale is more a matter of personal comfort in tight situations. I do know that when a bear charges, there isn't much time to think or aim. It becomes more a matter of reaction than action when matters get to be under twenty yards or so. The only time I ever carried a shotgun was when fishing, and it was charged with slugs. More common was my Model 94 chambered in .356 and loaded with 250 grain Kodiak bullets. It was enough for mountain grizzlies.

 

[Thankful Otter]

Who the h ---- is Steve MaQueen. I vaguely remember the Capstick name

I am surrounded by dinosaurs

Guy, April, thank you

Bear 78, Hodgeman. My grandfather is going to visit BHA. also asking an agency up here about carrying the handgun and rifle in that caliber. my grandfather is not a big fan of handgun loads in rifles, but he has an open mind to checking it out. I want to thank you both for your guidance in this matter.

Bear78, hope you get that rifle

Earle, I also can not argue your point about the buckshot I believe you, I have just never used it

 

[Thebear_78]

If hunting grizzly I would feel pretty comfortable using just about any suitable big game cartridge from 270 on up.

We aren't really talking about hunting. Hunting implies the option of passing up a poor shot and shooting an unsuspecting animal.

In a defensive or backup situation I'd want something 30+ and the sky is the limit. Of my personal guns, 9.3x62, 375 RUM, or 458 LOTT. I would be equally comfortable with a big bore levergun.


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[DrMike]

Who the h ---- is Steve MaQueen. I vaguely remember the Capstick name

I am surrounded by dinosaurs

Cheyenne, you're getting awfully personal. Ha! Next thing I know, you'll be questioning who is Brigitte Bardot and Liz Taylor. There is always Jayne Mansfield and Ann-Margret. Kids! :?

 

[Thebear_78]

Bear 78, Hodgeman. My grandfather is going to visit BHA. also asking an agency up here about carrying the handgun and rifle in that caliber. my grandfather is not a big fan of handgun loads in rifles, but he has an open mind to checking it out. I want to thank you both for your guidance in this matter.

That 500 S&W out of a handy carbine should be great. Out of a revolver it might be too much of a good thing. I've had two of them. The 4" and the 6.5" versions. I bought the 6.5" new and got the 4" in a trade. Of the two I liked the 4" better. They both shot well but recoil with stout loads was considerable, the muzzle blast almost worse than recoil. Their biggest downfall was they are just too big and heavy to carry. Even the 4" version weighs close to 4 pounds loaded. A hip holster is out of the question, you'll be walking in circles, and even in a chest holster it's just too heavy. Their weight kept me from carrying them and after the novelty of shooting them wears off I sent them down the road.

Unless your very experienced shooting large revolvers I wouldn't recommend It. I think you would be much better served with a lighter 357, 41, or 44. Even then I wouldn't max out the 44. Your much better off with something you can get multiple shots off with and be able to place them well.


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[Guy Miner]

Agree. The 500 S&W revolver is a beast to carry, and to shoot.

I love it, for what it is. But I carry the much nicer .44 mag S&W revolver in the field.

Guy

 

[Guy Miner]

I thought that little savage 99 in 338 federal would be right up your alley. I've been trying to avoid buying it but it's very intriguing. Nitrided to handle the weather and no worry of collector value. Ballistically similar to you 348. I'll see how the auction goes, it would make a great camp/truck/boat gun.

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Almost missed this one. What a cool little rifle! Have always liked the Savage 99.

Guy

 

[DrMike]

Bear, that 338 is pretty slick, do you think you will be able to snag it ? Someone had an interesting imagination when they put that one together.

Hodgeman, is Alaska Bullet works still in business ?

Alaska Bullet Works Inc
9978 Crazy Horse Dr
Juneau, AK 99801
(907) 789-3834

This is the last contact info I had from them. It's been a while but you can try to call them. There is a local shop in anchorage that always had some. I can check if you want.

I thought that little savage 99 in 338 federal would be right up your alley. I've been trying to avoid buying it but it's very intriguing. Nitrided to handle the weather and no worry of collector value. Ballistically similar to you 348. I'll see how the auction goes, it would make a great camp/truck/boat gun.

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That would be a unique rifle. I do like the 338 Federal. It does punch above its weight, and chambered in a Model 99? What's not to like?

 

[Anonymous]

That 500 S&W out of a handy carbine should be great. Out of a revolver it might be too much of a good thing.

This lines up my experience. I've fired a couple of revolvers chambered in the .500.... just too much blast to shoot and way too much to tote around. I fired a cylinder and thought..."What a great cartridge for a carbine!"

My interest in a .500 revolver is pretty much zero but a carbine would be great.

 

[Europe]

Who the h ---- is Steve MaQueen. I vaguely remember the Capstick name

I am surrounded by dinosaurs

Cheyenne, you're getting awfully personal. Ha! Next thing I know, you'll be questioning who is Brigitte Bardot and Liz Taylor. There is always Jayne Mansfield and Ann-Margret. Kids! :?

Strange, how the mind works, I was actually thinking--Paul Newman, Gregory Peck, Clark Gable, and who can forget the man who played "moses"

would you guys knock off all this rifle talk, Dr Mike and I are reminiscing !

o.k. to stay somewhat on topic. Carrying and shooting that 500 S & W would be a huge mistake Cheyenne. Like others I like the BHA, but not a matching caliber revolver.

Cheyenne, just because Alaska bullet works doesn't answer their phone does not mean they are out of business, he is a pretty independent cuss--I like him lol

 

[SJB358]

Cheyenne, just because Alaska bullet works doesn't answer their phone does not mean they are out of business, he is a pretty independent cuss--I like him lol

That's a fact. He makes some good Bullets.

 

[Blkram]

April,

To your question as to what I was carrying when I encountered grizzlies that ended up dead, the answer was a 338 Win Mag chambered Remington Model 700 BDL and a 358 Win in a Browning BLR.

Both worked very well, but in thick bush and a tense situation, my preference would be the BLR in 358. Enough power to do the job, short, handy and quick handling, and quick reloads with a spare magazine always on my belt.

For blackies, any Winchester or Marlin chambered in 30-30 up to 375 Win has worked very well for me. I know others who love their lever guns in everything from the 44 Rem Mag to the 45-70 as well.

 

[truck driver]

Who the h ---- is Steve MaQueen. I vaguely remember the Capstick name

I am surrounded by dinosaurs

Hmmmmm dinosaurs !

No your surrounded by men and a woman that has lived a full and rich life who just happened to remember the best of times and people who were great at what they did.
April remembers the men who appealed to her and the men remember the women

Oh and Steve McQueen started as a Bounty hunter in a TV western sires and played in other various movies.

As far shot gun verses rifle in a bear attack I think either would be better than a stick in the eye :mrgreen: JMO

 

[35 Whelen]

It was standard practice in the 70's/90's for Guides to lug
A short barrel 12ga shotgun as bear protection. None of us
Had "pepper spray" in those days.......it was not seen till later on. We did however all have confrontation with bears
Almost daily. How all of us used to handle this problem may shock some of you ??? It was standard practice (though a lot would prefer I didn't bring this up ) To " tune bears" up that started getting to "chummy" with our sports,
90% of us simply "lit em up" in the ass from about 40/50 yds with a load of #6 birdshot. They will lots of times leap into the air and squeal just like a pig....... They catch on very
Fast, heal quickly, and have a genuine respect for the rachetting sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round.
They quickly learn how close is too close and you will NOT have anymore trouble with that bear for the rest of the summer! Safe, fun, and extremely effective.
I realize in today's world just about everything we did in Alaska 40 years ago is now frowned upon, or they have a law against it. Many of us had to shoot bears with both slugs and buckshot to protect a clients life or our own.
The thread is about lever guns and bears so I will let it go.
But the 12ga shotgun was the standard carry of most of the "old time" hunting guides from the 1950's that all started fishing lodges in the 1970's........but heck what do they know anyway.

Here's a short list:
Bob Curtis
Ray Lochee
Larry Braynt
Bill Sims
Kenny Osaycheck
Marlin Grasser
Bill Martin
Ed Sieler
Ron Hayes
Kirk Gay
Jay Hammond
Stu Ramstead.............
They all luged em but then they again; :wink: