Loading for Accurate Ammo

[ArmyCW]

I haven't seen a thread on this subject all at one time. Most of you talk about one or the other loads, powders or bullets etc.

From reading Lymans 48 Edition Reload Hanbook and Precision Handloading Shoot Guide the are 3 basic factors that are key's.
"Consistency, Compatability and Concentricity".
#1. Consistency is all ammo must be exactly the same the more accurate is likely to be.
#2. Compatiblity is no two rifles are the same and may prefer difference in bullets, powder, charge weight, seating depth and even primers.
#3. Concentricity is all basic ammo is round and chambers/barrels are round. In other words the less runout there is the better. (from .001 to .002 is best with .002 - .004 okay) Simply said if you draw a straight line from the cartridge thru the barrel center all should be perfectly straight.

This all said now. I have worked up several bullets, Noslers 150 BT & AB 150 Hornady SST's and BTSP's with at least 3 different powders, IMR 4064 , IMR 4350, H 4350 all using WLR primers. Care was given to case lenght primer pocket cleanlyness and primer seating. All bullets were seated as per OAL listed in the loading manuals. I haven't yet experimented with loading to .010 off of the lands. I have on the way a RCBS concentricity gage to check each brass case, also getting a Lyman outside brass turning tools.

This is a picture of two bullets that are touching the lands/rifling.
I measured each and subtracted difference so I can load some to try.
Hornady BTSP, I have 0.090 to play with in seating
Hornady SST's, I have .120 to play with in seating
Noslers BT's same as Horn SST

 

[Powerstroke]

ArmyCW,

Keep us posted on your results......I'd actually recommend starting @ fifteen thousandths off the lands rather than the ten you mentioned.
Obviously watch your pressure signs.

Is this for your -06 ?

 

[JD338]

ArmyCW

I fixed the picture for ya. :wink:

You certainly have some good tools for building accurate ammunition.
I agree with Powerstroke, a good starting point would be .015-.020" off the lands as a minimum.
We are looking forward to your results. Thanks for sharing with all your friends at Nosler Reloading. :lol:

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

As a parallel thought I would like to interject something about statistics. Standard of deviation (SD) measures the uniformity of a load.

Now , I have learned the hard way that the coveted single digit SD does not ensure great accuracy. This is false! What it does mean is that the load is uniformly accurate or uniformly inaccurate.

 

[ArmyCW]

to answer questtions. Yes, this is my 30-06, Douglas Premium
barrel on Springfield A3 receiver, B&C stock bedded, Timney trigger
3-9X- 40mm Nikon Buckmaster in Burris Rings and Inserts.
Thanks for fixing my pics.

 

[Bart B.]

Found this thread looking for something else that's related. Thought I would plant a few seeds for thought.

The most accurate rifles I know of have shot reloads using full-length sized cases. And their bullets are seated out to touch the lands which centers them pretty well centered in the bore before firing. None of these rifles are benchrest ones. They're Winchester Model 70 based ones using Hart or Kreiger barrels in wood stocks.

As there's no such thing as a perfectly round sized case or reamed chamber, forget anything about the case perfectly fitting the chamber. Cases shrink back a bit after they're fired so there's always a bit of clearance.

There's no way a loaded round can set centered in the chamber. Extractors push the back of the case against the chamber wall. And in some instanses, the ejector plunger in the bolt face will push the case head such that the case shoulder is forced against the chamber wall.

 

[bullet]

Our we loading accurate rounds for hunting or competition??? It does make a difference.

 

[Richracer1]

Our we loading accurate rounds for hunting or competition??? It does make a difference.

+1. I load for hunting purposes. I have been able to achieve outstanding results. I do not do all of the processes others do, just because I do not see the need for it nor do I want to spend the time doing it. Some of the items I don't do are:
Weigh each bullet and piece of brass.
Neck trim except for my 204Ruger
Measure neck thickness or worry about concentricity.

What I do is:
Trim all brass for that caliber to one specified length
Digitally weigh each charge
Use only one type of brass head stamp for that specific load/rifle.
F/L size all brass all the time
Measure each round to ensure consistent seating depth.
Use only one type of primer - GM---M (205, 210, or 215)

 

[Idaho_Elk_Huntr]

is it my bad eye sight or is the case on the left got a case head separation started?

 

[Desert Fox]

Accuracy loads? I only do these on two of my rifle that are capable of superb acccuracy. They are the 338 Lapua which was design for extreme long range shooting and my 308 Tactical Rifle which is going to be use in competition. The work involved in loading this two rifle is so tedious that if I did it on all my rifle, I would have to spent all my time reloading rather than shooting. But if your rifle is capable of extreme accuracy, why not do it.

Sorting bullet and brass for uniformity

Trimming meplat

Using two scale to weigh powder

 

[bullet]

is it my bad eye sight or is the case on the left got a case head separation started?

I don't think your eyes are bad, if they are mine are also bad.

 

[bullet]

Desert Fox, when you get through using my stuff would you please box it up and send it back to me, I think if I use my stuff again I will get tighter groups than I have been since you have been using my loading equipment. :lol: :lol: 8)

 

[BK]

ArmyCW,

Unless you are shooting a tight-necked chamber, I would't bother neck turning. If your brass is that out of whack in the neck, I'm sure it has other problems. Plus, if you take too much off the necks, you will have to get a bushing sizing die, bucause your necks might be too thin to size properly.

 

[ArmyCW]

Thanks guys for all the input. I've found that by working on my shooting skills, ie trigger control, breathing, sight picture, focus, follow thru
etc allong with a few hours of doing the above by dry firing I have
tightened up the shoots alot.. Sunday afternoon, I shot 4 rds in 1 inch
and 3 of those 5/8". Starting out using new brass instead of some
once shot RP's bought on ebay.

so far Ive got less than MOA with 150 Hornady BTSP, SST's with
49.8 gr IMR 4064. working now on loading H4350 with some
165's ... next sat will tell.
Kenny

 

[JD338]

ArmyCW

You are well on your way. :lol: Good job!

JD338

 

[old #7]

is it my bad eye sight or is the case on the left got a case head separation started?

I don't think your eyes are bad, if they are mine are also bad.

That looks like a mark left by the end of the chamber to me.
All of my brass shows the same mark. Even once fired brass.
I think the dirty case exploits it in his picture.

 

[barge]

:lol: It sounds to me you are on your way to a rewarding and sometimes frustating experiance. I would just like to mention that there are some things that affect goups that are sometimes over looked. I do not know what type of bench you are useing or how tall you are but make what ever adjustments are needed to get you sitting up and not leaning into the gun or stretching to get behind it. I am tall and this is usually my problem however I have had to place something under people to get them in the best position. Also remember your objective is to keep the gun against your shoulder while imparting as little influance to the gun as possible, prefurably without getting hit by the scope. You can also observe the recoil of the gun ( is it CONSITANT straight up, to the right ect). It takes time and effort to be able to shoot off the bench well. I have had several freinds that shot game well but thought they could not shoot off a bench until we talked and they worked up loads for several rifles. They then learned to shoot from a bench.

 

[Bart B.]

Barge's reply struck a good point. Bench shooting is not easy to master. Consider the following.

In benchrest matches, most folks shoot their rifles resting atop bags or mechanical rests in free recoil. They pinch the few-ounce trigger off using their thumb and forefinger. This method is very repeatable as recoil resistance always has the same axis and amount. Easy to do with a mild recoiling 13 pound rifle chambered for rounds shooting 50 to 70 grain bullets atop 20 to 30 grains of powder.

Some years ago, a friend of mine and I took our 13-pound .308 Win. match rifles out to the range to check muzzle velocity between a couple different case types. Lots of people were there, so we decided to check something else. We asked a dozen or so of them to shoot a five shot group at 100 yards with our standard ammo; 168 grain max loads. They all dry fired a few times to get used to the trigger, then shot their groups. After they were done, we measured the groups; ranged from 3/4ths inch to 2-1/4 inch. Those same rifles clamped in a machine rest shoot under 1/4th inch all day long at 100. Best we two could ever do on a bench holding those rifles so they wouldn't fly off the sandbags was about 3/4ths inch.

Two of us were checking handloads from an M1 Garand chambered for the 7.62 NATO cartridge. He consistantly got about 90 fps faster velocity that I did with the same ammo. Why? I didn't hold the rifle as tight against my shoulder and grip it's fore end and pistol grip as hard as he did.

All of which convinced me that hand-held, shouldered rifle accuracy off sandbags atop a bench is inversely proportional to recoil. Why? The rifle moves too many different ways during recoil while the bullet's going down the barrel.

 

[ArmyCW]

I've read all comments. Yes, shooting from the bench can be
extremely fun (some frustration). I shot alot growing up, 22, 218 Bee,
grandads 06's, 357, hunting, shotgun some. I worked at a range in
Karlshrue GE for awhile, skeet and rilfe, cleaned guns, loaded skeet and trap house, learned some about both. Saved money as an SSG with wife and 2 kids to buy 870 pump and Rem 788 243, both I have today.
Getting older, so eyes and reflexes are slow, breathing, trigger control I now have to work at but still enjoy outdoors, range. Army life was good, got to shoot and be outside. Finding out my skills have diminshed some but rifle is capable of sub MOA groups now. Learning how to hold the rifle on the sand bags consistenly the same is trying.... period.. I don't use a rifle bench clamped in, think thats cheating in my book, okay to see what gun will do.... I like to try off hand shots occasionally with rifles and shoot guns to keep up some skills, Teaching Grandsons all that I know...
Hummmmm.......might take 10 minutes...LOL
Really appreciate all the feedback on this subject..
Kenny

 

[barge]

:lol: I understand the getting older part and vision challange. Sometimes it takes me 6 or so rounds to settle down to where I can get good groups. Most of us do not get to shoot several times a week to keep us intune. I also do not clamp a rifle or pistol and usually will shoot several rounds off hand just to try and keep myself a little sarper.