Need help with load development?

[rshew]

Hi,
Been reloading for over 25yrs, have a question with a problem for a load development for .270 that is stumping me.
I'm using Nosler 160gr SP with IMR 4831 powder. The 7th edition Nosler reloading manual max load is 52.0gr to achieve 2820 fps??

I have loaded to there max of 52.0gr and only achieve an average of 2542 fps? I have worked up a load to 55gr of powder and my chronograph shows an average of 2701 fps (not even close to 2820fps as they claim with 52.0gr in their manual).

At 55.0gr I have a .55 grouping of four shots at 200yrds. No signs of primer blow back or case fatigue, bolt easy to open and eject shell.

Should I continue a few more increments if no signs of over pressure appear, to get to 2800ftp?

Any feed back would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

 

[BretN]

One of the guys with a lot more understanding of it will chime in soon, but I've always found Nosler and Sierra books to be pretty conservative. In one of my guns I never go beyond either max listing, as it shows pressure early and often.

Look up the load on the Hodgdon/IMR website. I'd bet their max is higher. Carefully approach that max and see if you get the fps you are looking for.

 

[Wyo7200]

Difference of barrel length and components off the top of my head. If you are able to, get a measurement of your case capacity in H2o grains. I would also venture a guess that your brass has more capacity than those used for published data. H2o capacity, loaded oal, your barrel length and velocity for a charge and we can take a look at it through quickload.

 

[BretN]

Hodgdon 2015 manual lists the max imr4831 as 52.9 gr and 2680 fps, which closer matches what you are seeing.

I've no idea how Nosler is getting 2820. They list that they are using a 24" Shilen barrel. That may have something to do with it. Nosler brass lists 63.8 gr water capacity. They also list using a Fed primer, which I know are hotter than the CCIs I use.

 

[SJB358]

I'd continue working up slowly in .5 grain increments looking for pressure along the way. If you have a shorter barrel I'd probably look at 2750 or so to me my max. If it's a 24" you should be safe moving higher. The guns/brass/chambers used for load development are all factors in how these loads work for us. 4831 should be a good one for that bullet and I'd be fine with working up slowly observing all of the signs you can of over pressure.

 

[hubcap]

Welcome to the forum rshew. Always good to have another .270 gunner on board. OK right at you with what you are doing. IMR-4831 has been my favorite powder in the .270 since 1982 when I started reloading. For me it has been a fantastic powder for everything from 130,s to 160 PT,s . Believe you me that powder will make a 170 speer round nose go real nice as well. For the 160 PT and all the nosler Partitions I use nosler manual no.1. It calls for 54 grs, max for 2806 from a 26 inch barrel. By carefully starting below that charge I worked my way up to 55 grains in both of my .270,s. I did not have any issues at 54 or 55. At 55 grains the chrony showed 2825-30 in my FN mauser with its 22 inch barrel. In my 70 win 53.5 did 2608 and 2587 for the two shots I checked. So in my two rifles I was able to go one grain over nosler BK-1 max without any issues. I never went past 55 and I ain,t gonna either. 2800 is more than enough velocity with the 160 PT. 55 grains is really close to rifle max in my guns so more powder would just mess things up. With 55 grains the chrony showed 2822,2829 and 2830 for the last shot. The other thing I want to mention is nosler manual no.1 uses norma brass and remmy primers. I use cci-200 primers and remmy brass. With 160 PT,s I load close to the lands around .025 to .030.

 

[FOTIS]

Cartridge          : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .277, 160, Nosler PART SSP 16324
Useable Case Capaci: 59.367 grain H2O = 3.855 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

177 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26                 102.0     60.0     3.89    2942   100.0    65000   13741   1.108  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP                          102.9     58.8     3.81    2920    99.9    65000   13911   1.105  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                    104.7     58.6     3.80    2915    98.4    65000   14276   1.100  ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70                   99.8     58.2     3.77    2912   100.0    65000   13476   1.092  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                    105.0     61.1     3.96    2907    97.2    65000   14361   1.106  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                       103.4     58.1     3.77    2904    98.7    65000   13812   1.091  ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15                       105.0     58.1     3.76    2892    99.5    64995   13717   1.106  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation       105.0     58.1     3.76    2892    99.5    64995   13717   1.106  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                 105.0     58.1     3.76    2892    99.5    64995   13717   1.106  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213                        104.4     57.7     3.74    2890    98.6    65000   13682   1.089  ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 60                   93.4     53.6     3.47    2881   100.0    65000   12332   1.100  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                     104.6     62.3     4.04    2876    99.8    65000   13106   1.098  ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17                            92.4     53.0     3.44    2858   100.0    65000   12241   1.108  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17                  92.4     53.0     3.44    2858   100.0    65000   12241   1.108  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209                        101.2     55.1     3.57    2852    99.4    65000   12987   1.096  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19                 101.8     55.7     3.61    2850    99.4    65000   13065   1.104  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation         102.5     56.1     3.64    2844    99.4    65000   12973   1.104  ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511                 94.2     54.9     3.56    2844   100.0    65000   12620   1.111  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                      97.3     55.0     3.56    2842   100.0    65000   12603   1.111  ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62                   95.8     54.9     3.56    2841   100.0    65000   12360   1.123  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        91.9     53.2     3.45    2841    99.9    65000   12660   1.112  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      91.9     53.2     3.45    2841    99.9    65000   12660   1.112  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12                  105.0     61.3     3.97    2840    98.5    59518   13804   1.136  ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517                105.0     61.3     3.97    2836    98.3    59163   13811   1.139  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204                           96.6     54.6     3.54    2827    99.2    65000   12726   1.105  ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4                         99.7     54.6     3.54    2827    99.2    65000   12726   1.105  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation           99.7     54.6     3.54    2827    99.2    65000   12726   1.105  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                   102.9     56.9     3.69    2827    98.0    65000   12893   1.101  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905                      105.0     57.0     3.70    2825    97.9    62454   13259   1.126  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365                        98.8     53.8     3.49    2824   100.0    65000   11695   1.122  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                     94.1     52.6     3.41    2820   100.0    65000   12198   1.121  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP                           96.8     52.4     3.40    2819   100.0    65000   12048   1.118  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation          96.9     52.4     3.40    2819   100.0    65000   12044   1.118  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385                       102.0     56.4     3.65    2814    99.8    65000   12473   1.123  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                       95.9     52.5     3.40    2814   100.0    65000   12001   1.134  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP15                        105.0     56.8     3.68    2812    98.8    59326   13480   1.154  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                     105.0     56.8     3.68    2812    98.8    59326   13480   1.154  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780             100.3     57.9     3.75    2805    99.3    65000   12407   1.109  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation        97.3     54.1     3.50    2804    99.9    65000   12239   1.117  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                           101.6     53.2     3.45    2802   100.0    65000   11790   1.126  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904                      100.6     54.3     3.52    2801    98.6    65000   12427   1.106  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                      105.0     57.5     3.72    2800   100.0    64978   12087   1.137  ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11                   90.6     51.2     3.32    2796   100.0    65000   11603   1.116  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23                 105.0     56.2     3.64    2794   100.0    59773   12223   1.156  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       99.3     53.2     3.45    2790    99.7    65000   12024   1.109  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                            97.5     53.1     3.44    2789    99.8    65000   11998   1.109  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070                          96.6     52.3     3.39    2789    99.9    65000   12021   1.124  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214                        105.0     59.6     3.87    2783    97.8    57943   13212   1.146  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT ~approximation        91.7     50.6     3.28    2782   100.0    65000   11658   1.099  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                           105.0     55.8     3.62    2780    97.4    56523   13379   1.163
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                 99.3     52.6     3.41    2777   100.0    65000   11114   1.119  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S361                        99.5     58.0     3.76    2772    98.0    65000   12200   1.116  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907                       94.5     50.8     3.29    2771    99.8    65000   11850   1.118  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7                          94.5     50.8     3.29    2771    99.8    65000   11850   1.118  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                        91.5     50.8     3.29    2771    99.8    65000   11843   1.118  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                      105.0     55.8     3.62    2769    97.4    60795   12680   1.135  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation       105.0     58.6     3.80    2768    95.7    58868   13130   1.144  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065                          95.6     51.2     3.32    2766   100.0    65000   11546   1.124  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320                            90.2     48.6     3.15    2766   100.0    65000   11072   1.109  ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT ~approximation        93.3     50.7     3.29    2759   100.0    65000   11328   1.109  ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903                       91.8     49.7     3.22    2759   100.0    65000   11102   1.137  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355                        92.1     49.3     3.19    2757   100.0    65000   11123   1.130  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25                 105.0     57.2     3.70    2756   100.0    53188   13080   1.200
ADI AR 2208                         91.0     48.3     3.13    2753   100.0    65000   11097   1.111  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET                      91.3     48.3     3.13    2753   100.0    65000   11097   1.111  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064                            91.7     47.4     3.07    2744   100.0    65000   10879   1.115  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165                    105.0     56.8     3.68    2741    99.2    60420   12032   1.151  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700                       91.7     52.4     3.39    2728    99.7    65000   11208   1.121  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                    105.0     55.1     3.57    2724    97.9    60535   11993   1.145  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150                     97.1     50.1     3.25    2716   100.0    65000   10487   1.129  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2                        105.0     57.5     3.72    2674    96.3    48635   13427   1.262
Bofors RP30                        105.0     57.5     3.72    2674    96.3    48635   13427   1.262
Vihtavuori N135                     93.3     46.3     3.00    2667   100.0    65000    9697   1.141  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N570                    105.0     60.6     3.93    2662    89.7    46791   14165   1.275
Lovex S071                         105.0     54.3     3.52    2644    99.6    53456   11757   1.245
Alliant Reloder-33                 105.0     63.1     4.09    2629    89.6    45730   13932   1.289
Hodgdon H1000                      105.0     56.8     3.68    2618    95.4    48305   12552   1.249
ADI AR 2217                        105.0     56.8     3.68    2618    95.4    48305   12552   1.249
ADI AR 2225                        105.0     57.8     3.74    2566    97.1    42309   13123   1.333
Hodgdon Retumbo                    105.0     57.8     3.74    2566    97.1    42309   13123   1.333
ReloadSwiss RS 80                  105.0     62.3     4.04    2534    88.0    41418   13432   1.351
Lovex D100                         105.0     61.8     4.01    2522    84.4    48092   11618   1.272
ADI AR 2218                        105.0     61.2     3.97    2508    84.7    41848   13373   1.338
Vihtavuori 24N41                   105.0     61.2     3.97    2491    81.0    44367   11982   1.309
Vihtavuori N170                    105.0     56.8     3.68    2473    87.3    44201   11622   1.341
Norma 217                          105.0     56.6     3.67    2473    94.3    37139   12981   1.432
Hodgdon H870                       105.0     59.3     3.85    2442    87.3    37405   12748   1.424
Alliant Reloder-50                 105.0     62.1     4.03    2389    82.8    34633   12838   1.484
Bofors 12,7mmRA NC1214 Lot20115087 105.0     60.8     3.94    2353    75.2    36969   11803   1.483
Hodgdon 50BMG                      105.0     58.3     3.78    2314    72.4    36375   10957   1.446
Hodgdon US 869                     105.0     61.2     3.97    2313    76.4    36062   11033   1.452
SNPE Vectan SP 13                  105.0     58.7     3.80    2266    80.9    32980   10925   1.510
Accurate 8700                      105.0     60.0     3.89    2234    79.0    32442   10751   1.513
Vihtavuori 20N29                   105.0     61.8     4.01    2207    75.4    31049   10741   1.545
PB Clermont PCL 513/520/9520       105.0     58.7     3.80    2205    77.5    31070   10516   1.547
NC A3502 ,test only                105.0     56.2     3.64    2036    53.5    29564    7901   1.579
TLP A 502(RH) ,test only           105.0     56.2     3.64    2014    58.0    27660    8395   1.622
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star           100.6     27.5     1.78    2009   100.0    65000    4677   1.215  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AS 25 BP                       105.0     19.4     1.25    1669   100.0    38640    3439   1.535
IMR TrailBoss                      105.0     19.4     1.25    1669   100.0    38640    3439   1.535
V1734 7-multiperf ,test only       105.0     56.2     3.64    1451    26.5    15558    3875   2.087

 

[rshew]

Wow!
Fast responses, Thanks Everyone.
The rifle is a Browning BR with a 24" barrel, I bought this new as my first hunting rifle back in 1983.
I'm using new Nosler brass, CCI 250 primer and my COL 3.384 or Ogive is 3.450 (very near the max for the clip).I believe the H2o as BretN said is 63.8gr

Interesting hubcap, as I did look also in my Nosler manual.1 from years back and saw the 54gr max? (To bad we didn't have the internet in those days) lol
I'm going to load up to 55.5gr and see if I can get around 2750fps if I can, will try them out this coming weekend.

 

[rshew]

Thank You FOTIS for the chart,

Again, Thank You Everyone as this as been a great help for me.

 

[RiverRider]

If you have another rifle to use the same powder in, you might be able to verify that the powder lot is just slower burning than what's typically seen. That could shed some light on the situation.

 

[Elkman]

I think that most factory testing takes place with a 26" barrel, that may not be the case with your data, but it could be part of the issue. You will lose around 40 fps per inch of barrel. If 55 gr. shows no pressure signs and shoots well, I would not worry about the other 100 fps.

 

[lhsako]

I think that most factory testing takes place with a 26" barrel, that may not be the case with your data, but it could be part of the issue. You will lose around 40 fps per inch of barrel. If 55 gr. shows no pressure signs and shoots well, I would not worry about the other 100 fps.

> this is why I like the speer data. they use factory rifles w/ standard barrel lengths for the cartridge for load development. :shock:

 

[hubcap]

Nosler manual 1 calls for 2806 in a 26 inch barrel with 54 grains while manual no. 5 calls for 2820 with only 52 grains in a 24 inch barrel. Can,t figure that one out other than the cases and primers are different brands. I have read that in some calibers nosler brass is rather light compared to say rem. or even ww for that matter. I wonder if the nosler brass is light in this case causing lower velocity. Most of my .270 brass in ww weigh 187 gr or so while my remmy brass is usually 197 or so. Not long ago I was fooling around with some hornady brass that came in at only 180 grains. The velocity definitely suffered. With federal brass I have to cut every load back due to heavy brass. Fed brass is usually 200 grains or so. Certainly that brass matters too. Out of the last 6 one lb. jugs of IMR-4831 I have used one of those jugs definitely gave velocity lower than usual. About 70 fps less as I recall. That can happen also.

 

[rshew]

hubcap,

Weighed some new Nosler brass and most were 178gr, never thought about light brass?

I have a few loaded rounds from the 90's using the same powder and bullet but used WW brass, I will fire these through my chronograph this Saturday as in the 90's I was using the Nosler. 1 manual then with 54.0gr. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference?

I will load some rounds from another 1lb jug and compare the two side by side also.

 

[Darkhorse]

I've been handloading since the early 70's and I have some old manuals that vary a lot from todays data. If in doubt go with the modern data. Reason is, the methods used to check pressure have advanced a lot over the years. Along with that advancement has come more accurate data from the bullet manufacturers manuals.
I think most, if not all, the claimed velocity achieved with published loads are very optimistic and may be dangerous to reach.

 

[hubcap]

hubcap,

Weighed some new Nosler brass and most were 178gr, never thought about light brass?

I have a few loaded rounds from the 90's using the same powder and bullet but used WW brass, I will fire these through my chronograph this Saturday as in the 90's I was using the Nosler. 1 manual then with 54.0gr. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference?

I will load some rounds from another 1lb jug and compare the two side by side also.

There ya go. Certainly worth the effort in my opinion. I woud rather re-group so to speak rather than add more powder to the nosler brass.

 

[truck driver]

I don't know if the brass weight has anything to do with the higher - lower velocities you are getting but I do know from my own experience that the Nosler brass has more H20 Cap than Remington in the same caliber, 35Whelen AI Nosler brass H20 Cap 76grs vs Remington 35Whelen AI brass 75grs H2O cap. the Remington brass has a heavier dry weight than the Nosler and less case capacity.
I do believe that the loads we see in the reloading manuals are more generic for different brands of brass so we don't get into trouble using different brands than what was used to create the loads. Don't know if this is right or wrong just my opinion.

 

[BretN]

"At 55.0gr I have a .55 grouping of four shots at 200yrds. No signs of primer blow back or case fatigue, bolt easy to open and eject shell."

Good luck with further work up of this load, but the above info tells me you already have a really good load put together at 55 gr. regardless of how fast it's running. Nice to know you have that to fall back on. That 160 gr Nosler packs serious authority in your .270. If your accuracy opens up with further experimentation, I wouldn't hesitate to come right back to that 55.0 gr load.

 

[rshew]

hubcap,

Weighed some new Nosler brass and most were 178gr, never thought about light brass?

I have a few loaded rounds from the 90's using the same powder and bullet but used WW brass, I will fire these through my chronograph this Saturday as in the 90's I was using the Nosler. 1 manual then with 54.0gr. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference?

I will load some rounds from another 1lb jug and compare the two side by side also.

There ya go. Certainly worth the effort in my opinion. I woud rather re-group so to speak rather than add more powder to the nosler brass.

hubcap,
Well, went to the range today with 55.5gr and achieved an average velocity of 2750fps with no signs of over pressure on the cases. Also, fired some rounds I had loaded in the early 90's with the same type bullet,160gr and powder, IMR 4831 but was loaded at 54.0gr and achieved 2830fps (Nosler Manual#2 / 54.0 max IMR 4831)?????

I'm at a loss here with the difference of grains of powder and FPS between the same powders?? All I can try now is loading some rounds from a different jug of IMR 4831 and see if I get the same FPS using 55.5gr to eliminate maybe a bad batch of powder from the first 1lb jug??

Could the newer powder have changed this much over the years, still don't see how Nosler achieved a max load of 52.0gr to get to 2800fps

Any Ideas??

 

[hubcap]

hubcap,

Weighed some new Nosler brass and most were 178gr, never thought about light brass?

I have a few loaded rounds from the 90's using the same powder and bullet but used WW brass, I will fire these through my chronograph this Saturday as in the 90's I was using the Nosler. 1 manual then with 54.0gr. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference?

I will load some rounds from another 1lb jug and compare the two side by side also.

There ya go. Certainly worth the effort in my opinion. I woud rather re-group so to speak rather than add more powder to the nosler brass.

hubcap,
Well, went to the range today with 55.5gr and achieved an average velocity of 2750fps with no signs of over pressure on the cases. Also, fired some rounds I had loaded in the early 90's with the same type bullet,160gr and powder, IMR 4831 but was loaded at 54.0gr and achieved 2830fps (Nosler Manual#2 / 54.0 max IMR 4831)?????

I'm at a loss here with the difference of grains of powder and FPS between the same powders?? All I can try now is loading some rounds from a different jug of IMR 4831 and see if I get the same FPS using 55.5gr to eliminate maybe a bad batch of powder from the first 1lb jug??

Could the newer powder have changed this much over the years, still don't see how Nosler achieved a max load of 52.0gr to get to 2800fps

Any Ideas??

Good job rshew. No ,IMR-4831 has not changed as far as I can tell. My 160 PT data is less than a year old. It looks like you have a cold lot no. You should never need 55.5 grains. Your old load gave 2830 with 54. You should get that now. Agree with you. Try a new jug with a different lot no.