New scope on primary rifle. CDS, BDC,SF, AO, ?

[Mountain Goat]

I have been going over many scenarios in my mind for my next hunting scope. I like the BDC type, but don't like how they are designed to work on the highest magnification. I like the CDS but don't want to rely on turning knobs. I've thought about going with a fixed 6x along with a ballistic plex type reticle. They all seem to have their advantages and disadvantages.

What I have done in the past is make sure that the apex of the bottom duplex reflects 400yds (or very close to it) on the highest power setting. 10x is the highest I have on a hunting rig. I have a couple of Nikon Monarchs with the BDC. It works very well on targets, but there's too much interference when shooting at an animal. My first shot was at a coyote at about 125yds and I missed him high. My eyes just kept going to the circles and not the crosshairs. I also don't like how the circles represent different yardages at different power settings. The CDS system sounds really neat, but I don't want to rely on turning dials when the opportunity to take a shot presents itself. I also thought about going up to a 14-16 power, but don't want to turn dials and a side focus/AO just to take a shot. I understand that it helps to have the target and the reticle on the same focal plane, but this is for hunting, not precision target shooting. Let's set my hunting distance to 400yds max but have a great place to practice out to just past 500yds as well as access to a 600yd range.

I'm thinking on sticking with the 2.5-10 VX3 but getting the CDS. After all, I don't have to turn the dials once zeroed. I'm not totally sold on Leupold but own a few of them. Here's my thoughts on what I've looked at so far:

Leupold: options above 10x seem odd and pricey.
Nikon Monarch: eyebox is not great and over 10x models are SF
Minox: the eyepiece is very long, the 3-15x is not AO/SF but is that too much not to have it.
Zeiss: higher magnification is quite costly.
Vortex Viper: getting good reviews, but still a new kid on the block. I like what I see so far.
Burris Signature Select: nice in all aspects, but I've had bad luck with their customer service
Bushnell Elite: the new 6500 looks to be awesome, but there's a lot of options in that price range
their customer service is the best I've dealt with and the 4200's I have owned have been great.
Meopta: I have not handled one and they seem to be short on eye relief

I probably left some out, but this is my main focus list. The two rifles I will be utilzing new glass are a M700 SS in 300 SAUM. It has a B&C mountain TI stock and Talley lightweight rings. The second is a M70 in 270WSM. New stock is on the way for this one. What ever I decide on, I want these two rifles to be set up the same way as they will be the two taken on open country hunts.

This is a long post, but I wanted to get some feedback and ideas of what others are using or found to be helpful or hurtful.

thanks for tolerating my rather boring read.

 

[6mm Remington]

Mountain Goat so many choices and decisions! I'll really confuse you now, but I like the fixed power scopes with my favorite being the Leupold 6x42mm with the duplex crosshairs. I have not felt compromised in close quarters or at long range. This scope sits on my Ruger 1B in 6mm Remington. My other Ruger 1B wears a fixed 4x Leupold and it's in 30-06. I killed an antelope buck with it at just over 500 yards several years back! My feelings are a 6x42mm Leupold with the LR duplex matched for your cartridges would be great. I just checked with the factory and by ordering one it's only about $45.00 over the cost of the plain duplex to have a custom reticle put into your scope. Fixed power: simple, everything looks the same every time you pull it to your shoulder, rugged, less moving parts to break.

My son's 6mm Remington Ruger MKII has a 4.5-14x40mm Leupold with the B&C reticle in it. It is simple to use the holdovers and I really like this scope. He's only 14 and had good success and has no problems using the scope as it's designed. He's taken a couple antelope at 300 yards or so and got an elk at 350 with it this year. It's fast and simple to use. He's saved his money for a Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather SS in 300 WSM, and I think we are going to get the same scope for it. I'm impressed with it a lot. I also kind of like the reticles that Zeiss has in their scopes that's available as well. It looks fast and simple.

My personal opinion is that the BDC turrets are okay, but it's just something else to get bumped or moved, and by adjusting the elevation up and down all the time, that it just makes sense that these would be more prone to failure. Just my thoughts. I didn't help much did I!
David

 

[Mountain Goat]

6-Rem, you didn't confuse me at all. I was considering the FX-3 6x42 with a custom LR reticle just to keep things simple and consistent. What I keep asking myself is: would this be the ideal set-up, or is it the best compromise without having anything ideal?

Do you find that the field-of-view on the Lupy 4.5-14 to be a bit narrow? The few that I've looked through seemed to be that way. Is the B&C reticle desingned to work best at 14x? What difference in yardage do the lines represent at 10x compared to 14x? Is this model better with the SF? I appreciate your input, and if you have any info corresponding to my other questions, it would be appreciated as well.

 

[6mm Remington]

Do you find that the field-of-view on the Lupy 4.5-14 to be a bit narrow? The few that I've looked through seemed to be that way. Is the B&C reticle desingned to work best at 14x? What difference in yardage do the lines represent at 10x compared to 14x? Is this model better with the SF? I appreciate your input, and if you have any info corresponding to my other questions, it would be appreciated as well.

Mountain Goat I don't claim to be a scope expert, but having said that, I have not found the field of view too narrow on the 4.5-14. I think it's a great scope and I'm a big Leupold fan. I know they really stand behind their stuff and I like made in USA on them as well.

For the flat shooting rounds like the 270 WSM & 300 SAUM you would be shooting, the power setting would be at 14x. That is the larger triangle on the scope power ring. The smaller diamond is at about 10x, and it's for slower cartridges or heavy bullets in some such as a 180 or 200 gr. in a 30-06. The only accurate way to test this is to shoot the bullets you will be using in your rifle at different yardages and see how they do. We zeroed his 6mm for 200 yards and then shot it at 300 using the 300 yard hash mark on the scope and it was right on the money. On his elk at 350 yards, I told him to hold right in between the 300 and 400 yard marks as his aiming point, and he hit right where he was holding. We had not had an opportunity to shoot it at 400 and 500 ranged yards, but plan on spending some time doing that when the weather gets a little nicer.

If you go to the Leupold web-site, they have some videos you can watch that help explain the different reticles better than I am doing. One is about 13 minutes long. To see exactly what power setting your scope has to be on for the cartridge and bullet you are using, set a target up at 500 yards with the bullseye at the top of the paper and have about a 50" length of paper below this. With your rifle sited in for 200 yards, crank the scope up and shoot a 5 shot group at 500 yards. Go to the target and circle the group with a black marker and then color in the circle so it is black. Then go back to 500 yards and with the rifle set on bags or something real steady where you can have the crosshairs right on the bullseye you shot at. Turn the power settting until the top point of the lower crosshair post is right in the center of your black marked group where your bullets had hit on the paper. The main center crosshair needs to be right in the center of the target dot you were aiming at and the top of the bottom crosshair post in the center of where your bullets hit. What power setting your scope is at is what you need to use in that rifle for that bullet. It is sited exactly in for 500 yards then. The 300, 400, and 450 marks should be pretty darn close to perfect as well, but it does not hurt to shoot those distances just to make certain.

Watching the video probably is a lot easier than I explained it so you can actually see what they are doing. Some folks might like the turrets with the marked lines custom made for their rifle and cartridge with the bullet BC and velocity they are getting out of their rifle. It's a quick way to adjust for long shots as well. It's all personal preference I guess. Good luck with your choices. I sure think the 4.5-14 would be great scope on both of those rifles as they both can reach out and touch something at long range yet the lower setting is perfectly fine for the really close shots that might present themselves.
David

 

[Mountain Goat]

I follow what you are saying. It's just difficult for me to determine which is the best way for me to hunt, turn power ring, turn turrets, or neither.

Thanks for the great report. I'll take a first-hand experince over an "expert" review from someone who is pre-set in their ways about what a scope should or shouldn't do.

 

[SJB358]

I will second the Leupold B&C reticle! I have two of them, one in a 2.5x8 and the other is a 4.5x14. the 2.5x8 works really well on my 338WM out to 400 yards so far. I think the 4.5x14 will work pretty slick on my 270WSM or 25-06. Scotty

 

[Mountain Goat]

Thanks for the input guys. So, if I go with the 4.5-14, should I go side focus or not?

 

[6mm Remington]

If it were me I would say no on the side focus. I like to keep it simple as possible. Just one more thing to worry about and then forget you set it at a long distance and then you get a really close shot or something. The KISS principle!

 

[6mm Remington]

I follow what you are saying. It's just difficult for me to determine which is the best way for me to hunt, turn power ring, turn turrets, or neither.

On a long shot if you have a variable you are going to crank the power ring up anyway to give you a more precise aiming point as you will have the time as these certainly aren't and should not be rushed shots anyway. If that's all you have to do, you are done, but with the turret adjustment, then you have to move those the required amount. Now what happens in the heat of excitement you have forgotten to turn your turret back down after your animal dropped, but it's out of sight and you move in thinking he's done. You get about 200 yards away and all of a sudden that big bull gets up and starts moving out with his adrenaline pumping and you still have your turrets set for 500 yards. You would be missing awfully high if you forgot this one little detail.

I like the one simple detail of turning the power ring on the scope to where you have verified that it needs to be so that the hash marks, stadia lines, or whatever marks you might have are right where they need to be. If you forget to turn the scope power down, your crosshairs are still going to be sited in for 200 yards and your shot on that bull will be just fine. He might look big in the scope but your bullet won't be hitting really high, and you miss!

I'm trying to save up money for just one more rifle (RADD BABY :shock: ) in a bolt action 6mm Remington. I have thought about putting a 4.5-14x40mm Leupold with the B&C reticle even though I'm a fixed power guy. Either that or a 6x42mm with the custom reticle for the bullet and velocity I will be shooting it at out of that rifle. I like my fixed powers.. :grin:

 

[6mm Remington]

Guy Miner are you listening? If we could get him to chime in here, I think he would be right with me there on the 6x42mm Leupold! He's kind of a straight sort of fellow as well! :lol: :mrgreen:

 

[DrMike]

Just one more thing to worry about and then forget you set it at a long distance and then you get a really close shot or something. The KISS principle!

+1

 

[Mountain Goat]

That covers some of the scenarios that run through my mind. I don't like the idea of changing my zero. How do I know it will come back to where it was? I would hate to pull up on an animal and have the thing out of focus because he's not at the prescribed yardage, only to get "bigfoot" footage of him as I try to scramble with knobs. The fixed power idea is sure sounding nice right now.

I will get some practice in using some of my variable scoped rifles set on 6x and see how that goes. If I can ring the 400yd gong repetatively, then I might have my answer. If not, I will assess my shooting skills, then work with some BDC type reticles. I might just have to Ronco the side focus models, "set it and forget it." The infinity symbol setting is for me.

 

[Songdog]

I shoot 600-800 all the time these days.... and I've toyed with my fair share of glass. But, for all-around shootin' stuffedness.... the 3-9x40 (enter 3.5-10 here if you're so inclined), with an elevation turret of some sort, wins hands down.

 

[cloverleaf]

My .02-
I have a VX II on my rifle at the moment because I do to much shooting at paper. If I were doing more hunting out west I would Have Leupold put a two minute dot in a fine cross hair. (A Luey dot is easier) With a little practice you will figure how much of a deers ear gets covered by that dot at 100 yds. That dot seems to magiclly appear on an animls chest. Quick, easy and if you put the dot above or below your bull on paper that fine cross hair is as accurate as you need. 6x if they are gonna be out there a ways, all around a 4x is still the way to go. CL

 

[JD338]

The Leupold FX II 6x42mm is an impressive scope. I am not sure if the B&C reticle is offered. Check with the Custom Shop to see if they can install the B&C reticle. That would make for one awesome scope. Another option woild be the CDS dials. :wink:

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

Vortex Viper: getting good reviews, but still a new kid on the block. I like what I see so far.

I am a leupold guy, everyone knows this. However so far I am really impressed with the Vipers.

 

[DrMike]

Vortex is giving Leupold competition, and for the consumer, that is a good thing. The Viper is very clear.

 

[WYcoyote]

Analysis Paralysis

 

[Mountain Goat]

Analysis Paralysis

That's for sure. I have really analyzed my previous hunting situations along with others that I might encounter and have concluded that the side focus/AO will be a huge disadvantage for me. I just don't want to mess with it. The BDC reticles are nice and I can hit targets with them quite easily. My problem with them is my "target panic" and don't like them covering up so much of what I wish to see on a game animal. My eyes are also naturally directed to the circles or bars rather than the crosshairs which will not work on an animal.

I've decided that I will stick with a maximum 10x variable or a fixed 6x with an M1 elevation turret or the like. I've put the Nikon Monarch back on the list after my pleasant experience with my 2-8 that I put on my new 223. The clarity and resolution were quite impressive.

My list so far:

Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x40 duplex with M1 elevation turret
Leupold FX3 6x42 duplex with M1
Nikon Monarch 2.5x10x42 nikoplex
Vortex Viper 3-9x40 v-plex
Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 z-plex (this scope really impresses me each time I look at it)

Other considerations:

Minox has some nice offerings, but I don't like how large the eyepiece is and don't want to use an extension ring.
Meopta looks wonderful, but I can't find them locally to look at.
Swarovski A 3-9x32 (used but nice) for $450
Sightron SII BigSky 3-9 or 3-12

 

[WYcoyote]

I just sold two Minox scopes, a 3-15x42 and a 3-9x40, and got to look them over pretty good.
I have no idea what you are describing as a large eyepiece. They are compact and light for their power range, with very nice glass. Both had BDC reticles, which I share your thoughts on. If you hike and want a handy scope these rock. I like the 4A reticle, check the open box specials at

http://www.cameralandny.com/

With that said I also have the 3-9 Conquest and you just cannot go wrong there either.