Nosler 200+ grainers VS Berger
- Thread starter matthewusmc8791
- Start date
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 5
Amen to that! I do not shoot very many bullets that are not built to be hunting bullets as well. I get great practical accuracy from all (6) of the most popular weight Partition calibers and weights that I shoot. If I change, like to a 300 grain .338 bullet in a .340, you bet that I want a bonded core or Partition for that bullet. I do not buy any Berger bullets for that same stated reason.
They could easily make the heavier bullets on the BT platform instead of the AB if they are built like the 180gr .30 and the .338's with the heavier shank section. Or stretch the nose on the AB and thin the jacket just a touch so they will expand down to 15-1600fps. Give it a little more boattail length and a longer sharper pointed tip. They could probably just take the 200gr .30 AB and add some boattail length, leave the metplate larger, and put a bigger diameter and longer more pointed tip in it. It would bump the BC and the larger metplate would probably drop the velocity it will open at. Price wise make them comparable to Bergers/Matrix/JLK/etc and you'll sell some bullets.
Bergers are here to stay. Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse here locally has them on the shelf. People watch hunting shows about hunting long range and they think loading Bergers will make them capable of killing animals at long range too. Bergers just aren't always easy to get to shoot well compared to conventional bullets. So I say make a conventional bullet perform more like a VLD target bullet and steal the thunder. Make them and they will come :grin: .
Plus Nosler could build a rifle geared more towards the long range crowd and pimp the whole package on their hunting show. Take their existing action (with possibly a longer magazine box [Wyatt] for the RUM's etc as a option) and add a #5 or 6 fluted barrel then throw a tactical/hunting style stock on it (McMillan, B&C, Greybull, Manners, H&S) and sell it for half of the top end guys. I'd probably do a B&C to keep the price down and maybe option another or the B&C with the adjustable length of pull and comb, the barrel would only go up with the price of the fluting, add a ported muzzle brake as a option, and add a good trigger, ie Jewell. The only real cost over their existing rifles would possibly be a little on the stock and fluting on the barrel if they optioned the Jewell trigger. Start it at 2500 to 3000 with a 1/2-5/8" guarantee. They would sell a lot of rifles and bullets. Hell I'd volunteer to do the long range shooting/hunting/testing for them :mrgreen: . I'd really try to keep the starting price under 3000 on the base model though.
Bergers are here to stay. Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse here locally has them on the shelf. People watch hunting shows about hunting long range and they think loading Bergers will make them capable of killing animals at long range too. Bergers just aren't always easy to get to shoot well compared to conventional bullets. So I say make a conventional bullet perform more like a VLD target bullet and steal the thunder. Make them and they will come :grin: .
Plus Nosler could build a rifle geared more towards the long range crowd and pimp the whole package on their hunting show. Take their existing action (with possibly a longer magazine box [Wyatt] for the RUM's etc as a option) and add a #5 or 6 fluted barrel then throw a tactical/hunting style stock on it (McMillan, B&C, Greybull, Manners, H&S) and sell it for half of the top end guys. I'd probably do a B&C to keep the price down and maybe option another or the B&C with the adjustable length of pull and comb, the barrel would only go up with the price of the fluting, add a ported muzzle brake as a option, and add a good trigger, ie Jewell. The only real cost over their existing rifles would possibly be a little on the stock and fluting on the barrel if they optioned the Jewell trigger. Start it at 2500 to 3000 with a 1/2-5/8" guarantee. They would sell a lot of rifles and bullets. Hell I'd volunteer to do the long range shooting/hunting/testing for them :mrgreen: . I'd really try to keep the starting price under 3000 on the base model though.
300WSM
Handloader
- Dec 24, 2011
- 860
- 487
Idaho,
I agree with nearly all of what you are saying except the part on people will be asking for or a big need for that "long range bullet" hunting show watching or not.
In the grand finale, at the end of the day, that long range bullet seeker amounts to only peanuts.
The majority of reloaders are hunters. In that group is an even bigger majority of "give me a box of ballistic tip, partions, hornady, speer, sierra (fill in the blank) hunting bullet. Nosler wouldn't be filling any voids in the market by selling the next great mile range bullet. There just isn't enough need to even be considered a market in the first place for such a thing when compared to the gigantic (just give me box of grand slams) market.
A crazy B.C. bullet is peanuts. Actually peanut shells. :wink:
I agree with nearly all of what you are saying except the part on people will be asking for or a big need for that "long range bullet" hunting show watching or not.
In the grand finale, at the end of the day, that long range bullet seeker amounts to only peanuts.
The majority of reloaders are hunters. In that group is an even bigger majority of "give me a box of ballistic tip, partions, hornady, speer, sierra (fill in the blank) hunting bullet. Nosler wouldn't be filling any voids in the market by selling the next great mile range bullet. There just isn't enough need to even be considered a market in the first place for such a thing when compared to the gigantic (just give me box of grand slams) market.
A crazy B.C. bullet is peanuts. Actually peanut shells. :wink:
35 Whelen
Handloader
- Dec 22, 2011
- 2,237
- 512
Hey I would settle for a 275-280 PT as well ......................... how can I order some????
300WSM,
I think that is where you are wrong. If you look at the numbers of people signing up and the volume of post on Longe Range Hunting you'd see there is a decent number of people interested in it. If the bullets are not much more than their conventional counter parts then a lot of tinkering types will try them as well. Gun people like to tinker. If they are accurate enough then even some of the benchrest crowd will try them. Many use the Hornady Amax now. The Bergers took off because of benchrest/competition shooting and long range hunters. While they aren't as common as conventional bullets they are now sold at most larger retail stores and just about every online store. Hell I was shooting them way before they had a Target or Hunting bullet designation or lot numbers on the boxes and have killed stuff a long ways with them. But they are always lacking in performance over a conventional bullet. The Sierra Match Kings are the same way but people still shoot them. It's all about BC and accuracy at long range. Most of the long range gunsmiths are a year plus out on building rifles so that also means there is quite a bit of interest in it. The lead time on getting barrels from most of the high end barrel makers has gone stupid as well. 4 to 8 months is crazy when it use to be 4 to 6 weeks in the slower times of the year and 6 to 8 weeks in the busy time. If the bullets could make inroads into the competition shooting crowd then it would definately sell well as they shoot more bullets per person then probably any other group of shooters.
I think that is where you are wrong. If you look at the numbers of people signing up and the volume of post on Longe Range Hunting you'd see there is a decent number of people interested in it. If the bullets are not much more than their conventional counter parts then a lot of tinkering types will try them as well. Gun people like to tinker. If they are accurate enough then even some of the benchrest crowd will try them. Many use the Hornady Amax now. The Bergers took off because of benchrest/competition shooting and long range hunters. While they aren't as common as conventional bullets they are now sold at most larger retail stores and just about every online store. Hell I was shooting them way before they had a Target or Hunting bullet designation or lot numbers on the boxes and have killed stuff a long ways with them. But they are always lacking in performance over a conventional bullet. The Sierra Match Kings are the same way but people still shoot them. It's all about BC and accuracy at long range. Most of the long range gunsmiths are a year plus out on building rifles so that also means there is quite a bit of interest in it. The lead time on getting barrels from most of the high end barrel makers has gone stupid as well. 4 to 8 months is crazy when it use to be 4 to 6 weeks in the slower times of the year and 6 to 8 weeks in the busy time. If the bullets could make inroads into the competition shooting crowd then it would definately sell well as they shoot more bullets per person then probably any other group of shooters.
Woodycreek
Handloader
- Aug 2, 2007
- 2,240
- 0
IdahoCTD":oa18l72n said:
+1. The long range shooting crowd grows everyday. I know more and more people that are getting into it. If Nosler were to make a higher B.C. 30 cal AB I know I would buy a few hundred. If they make a 6mm 105gr BT i would buy a truckload of them.
300WSM
Handloader
- Dec 24, 2011
- 860
- 487
Idaho and Woody,
I'm new here and I have no interest in such a bullet. I love shooting short and long ranges but its on hunting based. Even on target only it is still with hunting in mind and so i use hunting bullets for that shooting.
I know a lot of people that shoot in the local 30 cal leauge. I know a lot more that are striclty hunting.
A few years ago I was asked to turn around a failing gun department at a large catalog/retail operation. I turned it around way past their expectations. To the point of rivaling any store in the state. In doing so I talked with and met so many different people.
I'm not saying that there isn't anyone who wouldn't want to try a bullet made by Nosler with a silly BC or the like....
but I am saying in the numbers perspective the long range voice is a pin drop compared to the hunter.
I don't see a need for Nosler to do such a thing. That is today. 15 years from now? Who knows.
I wanted to add one more thing.
The Long range shooter will do anything to get an edge. They will use the best possible equipment. They forever seek that group with a hole no bigger than the bullet itself. On that note this shooter will be the one to jump on this forum and I'm sure several other forums to talk..exchange tips...and just find any new hot product to tighten that group up. They especially love the internet as they can talkwith a crowd from places they don't know as they sure don't like to give up their secrets to the possible competition.
On the other hand the hunter is already content and easliy satisfied. Most never have a need to get on a forum or even talk about any of this stuff. They just want those favorite bullets.
Out of those two categories of shooters...what do you think the numbers are?
It is so lopsided and not even close.
I'm new here and I have no interest in such a bullet. I love shooting short and long ranges but its on hunting based. Even on target only it is still with hunting in mind and so i use hunting bullets for that shooting.
I know a lot of people that shoot in the local 30 cal leauge. I know a lot more that are striclty hunting.
A few years ago I was asked to turn around a failing gun department at a large catalog/retail operation. I turned it around way past their expectations. To the point of rivaling any store in the state. In doing so I talked with and met so many different people.
I'm not saying that there isn't anyone who wouldn't want to try a bullet made by Nosler with a silly BC or the like....
but I am saying in the numbers perspective the long range voice is a pin drop compared to the hunter.
I don't see a need for Nosler to do such a thing. That is today. 15 years from now? Who knows.
I wanted to add one more thing.
The Long range shooter will do anything to get an edge. They will use the best possible equipment. They forever seek that group with a hole no bigger than the bullet itself. On that note this shooter will be the one to jump on this forum and I'm sure several other forums to talk..exchange tips...and just find any new hot product to tighten that group up. They especially love the internet as they can talkwith a crowd from places they don't know as they sure don't like to give up their secrets to the possible competition.
On the other hand the hunter is already content and easliy satisfied. Most never have a need to get on a forum or even talk about any of this stuff. They just want those favorite bullets.
Out of those two categories of shooters...what do you think the numbers are?
It is so lopsided and not even close.
Woodycreek
Handloader
- Aug 2, 2007
- 2,240
- 0
A 30 cal 205-220 grain AccuBond would make a great bullet for short or long range hunting. It would be the same for a 6mm 105 grain BT. I'm not looking for Nosler to clone Berger bullets. I would just like some heavy for caliber BTs and ABs.
I would be willing to bet the average LR guy buys and shoots more than the average hunter by a considerable margin. So while the overall number of people leans heavily to the hunter vs. the LR guy, the LR crowd has made huge inroads in numbers and product sales. If there was a bullet that appealed to both markets then all the better. People seem to have a lot less time and/or money to put towards hunting now days so if they better their odds by being able to shoot further they tend to head that direction. That is why companies like McMillian, Lazzeroni, Greybull, etc build the rifles they do and they obviously sell enough of them to stay in business. There is also 10+ times the number of "Long Range" gunsmiths as there was 10-15 years ago so that tells you where the market is headed. I'm just giving Nosler some perspective from a person that has been shooting stuff past 800yds for 15+ years and has watched what has transpired in the market over that time. I have 2 Barr and Stroud type Zeiss optical range finders from back in the days before laser range finders and have packed them in to some crazy spots so I could make those long range shots.
The LRH website was a fraction of it's present size back in the days it started. When the first long range hunting shows started airing, a couple years ago, is when the membership really started climbing and now that there are 3 or 4 shows there is a constant influx of new members. I think Nosler see's the writing on the wall and that's why they made the 300gr .338 bullet. I'm just giving my perspective on what they can do from there to improve the idea and expand on it.
Honestly in my opinion the quality of barrels made today is so far ahead of those made 10-15 years ago, especially in sporter weights, and that is what has allowed people to shoot accurately to the distances they do now with packable guns. Years ago sporter weight barrels from the top companies were hit and miss as to weather or not they would shoot and that is why we packed 14-16lb guns around. I also think that is why the cut rifled barrels started making a huge presence as they would typically shoot better in lighter contours. Now its pretty even although I think cut barrels are still more consistently accurate from barrel to barrel.
The LRH website was a fraction of it's present size back in the days it started. When the first long range hunting shows started airing, a couple years ago, is when the membership really started climbing and now that there are 3 or 4 shows there is a constant influx of new members. I think Nosler see's the writing on the wall and that's why they made the 300gr .338 bullet. I'm just giving my perspective on what they can do from there to improve the idea and expand on it.
Honestly in my opinion the quality of barrels made today is so far ahead of those made 10-15 years ago, especially in sporter weights, and that is what has allowed people to shoot accurately to the distances they do now with packable guns. Years ago sporter weight barrels from the top companies were hit and miss as to weather or not they would shoot and that is why we packed 14-16lb guns around. I also think that is why the cut rifled barrels started making a huge presence as they would typically shoot better in lighter contours. Now its pretty even although I think cut barrels are still more consistently accurate from barrel to barrel.
300WSM
Handloader
- Dec 24, 2011
- 860
- 487
Idaho,
There is zero doubt that the LR shooter spends more money than the hunter....on components. If this was based on sporting goods sales then it would be even. But on just components the LR guy spends more. Actually much more over a year.
Even with that I still think because the numbers are so lopsided and ultimatley it still isn't a factor.
The more I think about this I have to say two more things.
If the LR shooter only had one choice of bullet.... lets say a Sierra match King was the only bullet being offered for that type of shooting....then there is more of an open need in the LR world.
That isn't the case as there are more companies and offerings than one lone bullet.
I must say though that years from now that very well might be the thing to do.
We lose hunters by an amazing amount every year. There might come a day when Nosler will have to make up for some lost sales in the hunting department and that way may very well be to get into some LR bullets.
Nosler is not a company to sit and do nothing and that is a good thing as any company that does zero will get very stale. They aleady have started expanding in a sense although still in the hunting sense.....by teaming up with some ammo makers. To be specific on this that venture with Olin was a home run on both parties. From the packaging on down. Since that Combined technologies birth into loaded factory ammo.....the majority of people i know that shot BT bullets have all switched over to buying Ballistic silver tips in component form. Do they shoot any better? No. It is the same bullet but it is now coated Lubalox and is black. You combine that nickel shiney case with a black bullet....whoa! That is one sexy looking cartridge. HAHA
Nosler getting into the world of brass is not a bad decision. There was a need for some mass produced brass in some calibers other makers were not willing to produce. From a price point of view someone needs to tell Nosler that brass only shares its color with gold. Only! That is for another discussion haha
Lets not forget that all this fun posting back and forth could be flushed because of something that nobody has even mentioned yet...and one of those things that does happen in business.
The friendly agreement....the gentlemens friendly agreement between companies that happens yet never reaches the public. :wink:
There is zero doubt that the LR shooter spends more money than the hunter....on components. If this was based on sporting goods sales then it would be even. But on just components the LR guy spends more. Actually much more over a year.
Even with that I still think because the numbers are so lopsided and ultimatley it still isn't a factor.
The more I think about this I have to say two more things.
If the LR shooter only had one choice of bullet.... lets say a Sierra match King was the only bullet being offered for that type of shooting....then there is more of an open need in the LR world.
That isn't the case as there are more companies and offerings than one lone bullet.
I must say though that years from now that very well might be the thing to do.
We lose hunters by an amazing amount every year. There might come a day when Nosler will have to make up for some lost sales in the hunting department and that way may very well be to get into some LR bullets.
Nosler is not a company to sit and do nothing and that is a good thing as any company that does zero will get very stale. They aleady have started expanding in a sense although still in the hunting sense.....by teaming up with some ammo makers. To be specific on this that venture with Olin was a home run on both parties. From the packaging on down. Since that Combined technologies birth into loaded factory ammo.....the majority of people i know that shot BT bullets have all switched over to buying Ballistic silver tips in component form. Do they shoot any better? No. It is the same bullet but it is now coated Lubalox and is black. You combine that nickel shiney case with a black bullet....whoa! That is one sexy looking cartridge. HAHA
Nosler getting into the world of brass is not a bad decision. There was a need for some mass produced brass in some calibers other makers were not willing to produce. From a price point of view someone needs to tell Nosler that brass only shares its color with gold. Only! That is for another discussion haha
Lets not forget that all this fun posting back and forth could be flushed because of something that nobody has even mentioned yet...and one of those things that does happen in business.
The friendly agreement....the gentlemens friendly agreement between companies that happens yet never reaches the public. :wink:
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 5
I am not convinced that the revived interest in long range shooting has much to do with hunting as some people think. My own feelings on this topic are that long range shooting is more a reflection of renewed interest in militaria and the war in Afganistan. In fact, in my family and hunting friends, there is no change in interest in long range shooting at all except maybe as an adjunct to more accurate factory loads and guaranteed MOA commercial rifles being offered to the general buying public for their hunting needs.
Shows like Best of the West, notwithstanding with their parlor trick of the week and their slick, it is soooooo easy, packaging does absolutely nothing for me at all. Maybe that is because I have been hunting for a long time and know at least some things about shooting game at longer ranges. I do however see a greater interest in shooing larger calibers at steel at longer ranges. If this helps build interest and bring more people into shooting as a lifelong hobby, I am all for it.
Shows like Best of the West, notwithstanding with their parlor trick of the week and their slick, it is soooooo easy, packaging does absolutely nothing for me at all. Maybe that is because I have been hunting for a long time and know at least some things about shooting game at longer ranges. I do however see a greater interest in shooing larger calibers at steel at longer ranges. If this helps build interest and bring more people into shooting as a lifelong hobby, I am all for it.
Prior to the introduction of Berger bullets most everyone used SMK's. In the last few years Berger has become more aggressive on development and marketing and in turn sells more bullets. There are many more smaller companies making VLD bullets too but most people have never heard of them. Berger is one of the only ones aggressively going after the hunting bullet market and they are doing well at it. That's why you see them at most of the larger sporting goods stores and featured on numerous LR hunting shows. While it's not a virgin market there is still plenty of market share for a high BC true hunting bullet because as of now the only ones out there are the $1.50+ each copper turned bullets.
