Please Analize My Groups

[35R]

Constructive (destructive as well WTH is the Interwebs :mrgreen: ) criticism requested.

Had a chance to go to the range the other to mess around with the 7mm-08. These were the two best groups of the afternoon.

First Group 120grain NBT with 43.50grs VARGET

Second Group 120grain NBT with 44.00grs VARGET

First group, I've messed up number one shot. Pulled the trigger before I was completely settled into position.

Second group, shot number 5 was the last shot for the day. I should be used to this since it is becoming very common for me to pulled the last shot.

To me it looks like group number two has better potential of the two. However, I need to know why am I having what it looks to be two different POI. Albeit, very close one to the other.
What am I doing wrong? Trying to make this my hunting load for this year Deer season.

BTW do not know how fast these are moving, my guess is North of 2900 fps. If someone with Quickload be so kind of as to calculate velocities for me. I would be must obliged.

Details:
Barrel 20" 1:9.5 twis rate Cartridge 7mm-08 Remington
Bullet: Nosler 120 BT Powder VARGET 43.5gr and 44.0 gr seating depth 2.840"

Thanks for your input

35R

 

[Mortis]

Take hammer.....

Place trigger finger on bench......

Smack finger with hammer.....

Now ya have a delicate trigger touch.....

Actually....not bad shooting at all.....

My Browning Micro-Hunter in 7mm-08 prefers 150BT's on top of IMR-4062....

 

[OU812]

Looks to me like you have 2 very nice deer hunting loads with either one you choose. Since you know you pulled the 1st shot in the first group and the 5th shot in the second if it were me I would be done shooting for groups. I would set the height you want at 100 yards and be done with it. Just my .02


Bill

 

[Horsethief]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with your groups. In my opinion, you're ready to go and you have minute of deer accuracy. After all, it is the first shot that counts. Shots two and three are likely not needed.
Knowing you pulled a shot keeps you from wondering why that one (or even two) went wild compared to the others. However, what made you pull a shot is important so you can take steps to avoid it.
Are you firing a fouling shot or two before shooting for accuracy? If you're not, try a few foulers and then go for the accuracy shots. Every rifle I have except one shoots better with a fouled barrel compared to a clean one.
Good work has paid off for you.

 

[AzDak42]

What was the condition of the bore before you shot? If it was clean, you might just be seeing the effects of a cold/clean bore on shot #1 and maybe a bit on #2.

If they two flyers you had were called though, then you're set. Excellent load either way.

 

[JD338]

Nice shooting. Your rifle wants to shoot. I am wondering if its the rest.
What are you using for a rest?

JD338

 

[dlove]

I don't have QL but I have some real world data for varget and the 120 NBT. 44.5gr is 2923fps 45.0gr is 2956fps in my 22" 7-08. my math says you should be around 2830.

those groups look pretty good to me.

 

[FOTIS]

Why five shot groups?

I prefer 5 3shot groups than 3 5 shot groups on hunting rifles.

 

[Oldtrader3]

35R, statistically except for the pulled shots, the groups are statistically equivalent at least until you have sufficient holes in paper for ANOVA, without degrees of freedom prejudice. I only say this because you already know.

Anyhow, nice groups and DRT deer, we all pull one occasionally. It appears that the rifle will shoot really well with the right operator. :lol:

 

[DrMike]

I prefer 5 3shot groups than 3 5 shot groups on hunting rifles.

Agreed. I'd likely reshoot each and limit my shots at the bench to three.

 

[Polaris]

You're sub MOA minus called flyers in a sporting rifle. Plenty good for the intended purpose. Not every rifle/load will or should shoot cloverleafs.

Do a little more testing. Despite opinions to the contrary I like 5 shot groups. If there's some component of your load causing occasional flyers 5 shots will more likely shine light on it. They're also useful for exposing flaws in your technique.

If that were my rifle and my groups and the intended purpose was deer sized game hunting at ranges under 350 yards I'd load up 20, fire 4 more 5 shot groups, preferably with 5 through a chrono to get an avg velocity. If results were similar to your groups I'd load up 200 and shoot 150 of them from various improvised field positions at field targets at unknown ranges. If that is not practical at your range, shoot the various field positions at whatever different ranges you can get. Especially practice shooting a clay pigeon pasted on your target offhand at 50 yards while leaning sideways about 20 degrees left and right. That scenario seems to be awfully common in the deer woods.

No offense, the fliers on both groups from a solid rest tell me you need to get better aquainted with your rifle. It will not let you down.

 

[SJB358]

I am with the others, 3 shot groups out of the hunting rifles for me. I honestly can't see a big difference between the two groups,.. Shoot a few more 3 shots groups, hunker down on the trigger with a little dry firing between shots to make sure your natural point of aim is correct and reshoot. When you get two groups within a group, it always seems like more of a NPA problem than an actual load/rifle issue. Still, great shooting.

 

[wildgene]

...yep, 3 shots for groups & to "Zero", then sneak in as many "cold bore" 2-3 shot checks @ ranges that you can...

(.325 WSM/ 200yd. zero/ 300yd target)

 

[bullet]

Part of the problem could be the Varget and also inconsistent neck tension or both, but without the rifle to play with I really couldn't be for sure.

 

[DrMike]

What bullet you slinging at 200 yards, Gene?

 

[35R]

WoW, thanks for the overwhelming response.

Let me see where do I start...OK, Why 5-shots groups. I understand that 3 shots test the load whereas 5 will test the shooter. I guess I opt to take 5 shots and really test my consistency.

I agree the above loads are all MOD (Minute Of Deer) But, I guess you all may relate to this, handloading is like a disease. We go through the pain staking task of prep/sort brass, measure, trim cases, meticulously weight every single powder charge, carefully seating bullets and check for runout, etc,etc.. All trying to squeeze the most accuracy out a particular firearm. I guess I do want to shoot cloverleaf groups too :mrgreen:

The rest,
Funny you mentioned that JD338. I am using a CALDWELL sand filled rear bag and a CALDWELL " The Rock Jr" in the front. And, I am not too thrill with the way the bag on the front rest slides freely. Maybe the velcro straps used to secure the bag to the actual rest are streched out and it makes the bag wobble during recoil. I may buy a much solid front rest and try again.

Botton line, load up a bunch more and keep shooting :mrgreen:

Bullet,
Why do you think Varget might be a suspect? Also, I only neck size the brass for this rifle and believe I am applying the same amount of force onto the press when doing it. Having said that, I've only been handloading for about 3-4 years and have much, much to learn.

Thanks Again

35R

 

[35R]

BTW Mortis, I am still LMAO with the Hammer suggestion....I am thinking I should do it after every pulled shot, LOL

 

[SJB358]

How many times have the cases been fired?

 

[bullet]

Bullet,
Why do you think Varget might be a suspect? Also, I only neck size the brass for this rifle and believe I am applying the same amount of force onto the press when doing it. Having said that, I've only been handloading for about 3-4 years and have much, much to learn.

Thanks Again

35R

By the look of the groups there seems to be an inconsistency in your groups which could be because someone drops their charges instead of weighing each one and of course that does not mean that dropping your charges cannot be accurate because sometimes it works fine. Second, as I said it might not really like the powder as well as another. Both my 7mm08 rifles like different powder giving me very tight groups since a 7mm08 is inherently accurate cartridge indeed.

Neck tension no matter if you do just neck size is consistently control through turning the necks taking out the high spots on the neck creating a much more consistent expansion of the neck walls releasing the bullet in a more consistent way helping the bullet to enter the throat better. Now some brass is better than others as I found Nosler did not need turning the necks like Winchester and Remington brass did. Now when I turned the necks I found very good 1/4" consistency in group after group which I have posted in a couple of threads concerning my M48 TGR.

I only mentioned these two things, the Varget powder and the neck tension for consideration.

 

[35R]

With this particular batch the cases had only been fired 3 times prior. All Remington cases trimmed at 2.025" BTW.

Bullet,

I do not drop charges, I weight every charge using a beam scale. I also understand about using different powders. So far, I've only used VARGET and H4895. I do want to try H414 and H4350 that I also have on hand. I've did not have the time. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaing about the size of my groups. I've just want to close them up a bit more.
I've never tried to turn the necks on my cases, maybe it's time to introduce myself to it.

Like I've said, I have much to learn.

35R