QL Please, reckon a mate is in strife

[Aussie Wanderer]

Hi Guys,

Hoping I can get a QL for a mate who is shooting a 257 weatherby. He is pushing the Barnes 101LRX at 3,840fps out of a 26 inch tube. This just wreaks of excessive pressure to me. He is loading 77 grains of H1000. Still shoots very accurately, but I am concerned there is a ticking time bomb close to his eyes and face.

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks from the southern hemisphere ;-)

 

[Bonz]

Stay away from him with that load in his gun.

That load is 5 gr and 400 fps over book max according to Barnes data I can locate for the 100 TTSX. Not the LRX, but probably pretty close.

 

[Aussie Wanderer]

Dr Mike, any chance of a QL with this projectile (101 Barnes LRX) and H1000 powder in the 257 Weatherby?

 

[RL338]

The 101 LRX is not in my QL library. Not knowing brass capacity and coal it’s a shot in the dark estimating overall pressure. In my opinion 77grs would definitely be a max load. I tried H1000 in my boys 257 Wby with 120gr bullets and finished up with 72-73grs depending on which bullet. So 77 isn’t out of the realm of possibility. However I’m not buying the 3840fps though. What is he measuring velocity with?
Be safe around him

 

[nhenry]

Stay away from him with that load in his gun.

That load is 5 gr and 400 fps over book max according to Barnes data I can locate for the 100 TTSX. Not the LRX, but probably pretty close.

I asked Barnes about the 101 and they said to use the 100 TTSX load data

 

[DrMike]

Dr Mike, any chance of a QL with this projectile (101 Barnes LRX) and H1000 powder in the 257 Weatherby?

Unfortunately, I don't have the 101 LRX in my data base. I'd be happy to run the projection for you otherwise. I note that while Barnes is listing the 101 LRX, they are presenting no data for it yet. I would assume that it is too new to have even run a set for it in their lab. I can say that for the 100 grain TTSX and 77 grains of H1000, max chamber pressure is nearing 75K psi. Given the same parameters, the 100 grain X bullet is pushing 76K psi. And the 100 grain XLC is nearing 88K psi. Each of these is well over the SAAMI standard of ~64K max chamber pressure. Though I cannot say conclusively what the pressure would be with the 101 LRX, the indications are that 77 grains of H1000 will definitely generate excessive pressure. I do not doubt that he is getting some wild velocities, but velocity can only be generated with increased pressure.

 

[Aussie Wanderer]

That is great stuff, thank you. I have cut and pasted that for him.

As a new reloader, the desire to redline and max out velocities seems to be common. Having reloaded for over 30 years, it seems to be a stage most of us go through early on before we learn that it just isn't worth it.

Thanks again and very, very much appreciated.

 

[Aussie Wanderer]

The other point I would make too is that as a new reloader, he referenced the internet as "Plenty of guys are running this type of load" whilst not actually referencing the source.

I think as a group that has been playing with these issues for years, maybe we should all be a little more vocal about nicely calling out the dangers associated with "hot" loads.

 

[Bonz]

Your friend is dangerous with his practices. It's even more scary that he uses the Internet as his justification. How many loading manuals has he picked up and read any type of information from?

I've got one guess as to one source he's looking at, and it starts with Rokslide. Plenty of guys develop loads to where the bolt sticks, then back off a grain. That kind of thing. It's ignorance, pure and simple. They won't let anybody tell them different. That forum lets this trash/unsafe conversation continue on a daily basis. People think it's OK because anyone that calls them on it is immediately scorned and that tried and true reloading practice is for the safety police. Sure there are some good folks over there but they get trampled.

 

[nhenry]

Just in case anyone was curious like me
Darn laserbeam if it were safe

100 yd zero, 10mph wind

Range	Velocity	Energy	Trajectory	Come Up (MOA)	Come Up (MILS)	Wind Drift	Wind Drift (MOA)	Wind Drift (MILS)
0	3840	3307.0	-1.5	0.0	0.0	0	0	0
100	3564	2849.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	1	0	0
200	3307	2452.0	-1.2	0.6	0.2	2	1	0
300	3064	2105.0	-5.7	1.8	0.5	5	2	0
400	2835	1802.0	-13.8	3.3	1.0	9	2	1
500	2617	1536.0	-26.3	5.0	1.5	15	3	1
600	2410	1302.0	-43.8	7.0	2.0	22	4	1
700	2212	1097.0	-67.4	9.2	2.7	31	4	1
800	2023	918.0	-98.1	11.7	3.4	42	5	2
900	1844	763.0	-137.3	14.6	4.2	56	6	2
1000	1677	630.0	-186.8	17.8	5.2	72	7	2

 

[MZ5]

As was said, the 101 LRX is not in QL's db.
Given this:

I asked Barnes about the 101 and they said to use the 100 TTSX load data

QL's defaults (for brass capacity, powder properties, and the like) for H1000 and the 100 TTSX show 75kpsi and 3,769 ft/sec from a 26" tube. It also shows >110% case fill. All that translates to a prediction that's significantly divorced from the reality in this situation.

In order to get to 3,840 ft/sec, but without changing COAL or case capacity, the adjusted powder properties yield well over 80kpsi from the model.

THIS LOAD IS AN OBVIOUS AND SIGNIFICANT OVERLOAD BASED ON BARNES' LOAD DATA AND QL's MODEL. IN MY VIEW IT IS UNSAFE.

 

[jimbires]

I'm a guy that chases velocity , I push the limits . I don't know all the particulars of this guys load , but it's not looking that bad to me . I just ran a quickload , and my velocity matched up pretty close to what the OP stated , so I'm guessing I'm close . these overbore cartridges need the weighting factor adjusted in quickload to bring things to align . without adjusting the weighting factor the pressures are way high , and the velocity is low compared to actual velocity . the chart I go by for weighting factors has the 257 WBY listed at 0.37 . with this adjusted the loads velocity is just about spot on to what the OP stated . actual 3840 FPS , quickload prediction 3834 . so I'm assuming this is a fairly close prediction . it looks to me that he is about 1.5 grains over and about 5000 psi over . this will probably beat up his brass , but I doubt it is dangerous .it looks to me that 75.5 would be a max load .



here is what I come up with after adjusting the weighting factor .

Cartridge : .257 Weath. Mag
Bullet : .257, 100, Barnes 'TTSX'BT 30220
Useable Case Capaci: 76.602 grain H2O = 4.974 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.170 inch = 80.52 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H1000 *T

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 88 61.60 2962 1948 32589 12066 88.3 1.460
-18.0 90 63.14 3046 2061 35023 12513 90.1 1.419
-16.0 93 64.68 3132 2178 37659 12943 91.7 1.374
-14.0 95 66.22 3218 2300 40499 13352 93.2 1.326
-12.0 97 67.76 3305 2426 43598 13736 94.5 1.279
-10.0 99 69.30 3393 2556 46948 14093 95.8 1.234
-08.0 101 70.84 3481 2690 50586 14419 96.8 1.191
-06.0 104 72.38 3569 2828 54545 14712 97.8 1.149 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 106 73.92 3657 2970 58858 14968 98.6 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 108 75.46 3746 3115 63568 15184 99.2 1.070 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 110 77.00 3834 3264 68721 15357 99.6 1.032 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 112 78.54 3922 3415 74373 15485 99.9 0.996 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 115 80.08 4010 3570 80585 15566 100.0 0.960 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 117 81.62 4097 3727 87431 15615 100.0 0.926 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 119 83.16 4184 3887 95005 15656 100.0 0.893 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 121 84.70 4271 4050 103401 15688 100.0 0.861 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 110 77.00 4018 3584 84337 14748 100.0 0.949 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 110 77.00 3568 2827 55289 15095 94.3 1.139 ! Near Maximum !

 

[MZ5]

I used to do that stuff with QL, too. It worked really well! ...until I really dug into what all the various kludges in it can do, and realized that just like any other set of figures, I can get it to tell me whatever I wish it would tell me. I just need to mess with that kludge instead of this one, or maybe a little of both plus a touch of a third. Do enough of that and I can make almost any load up to (and one time including) blown primers and a failed case appear to be within SAAMI or CIP pressure limits.

Barnes' data is clear: The load is 5 grains over max.

https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/257WeatherbyMagnum.pdf

I like my PressureTrace. It's a good tool to help me not make logical errors, or at least to check my assumptions. I do wish I had a good way to actually calibrate it (hydraulically, for example) for smaller calibers.

***EDIT: Too, if that Weatherby has as much freebore as the earlier ones did, that'll bleed a WHOLE lot of pressure off. QL doesn't model that portion of interior ballistics at all. So, whether QL says the load is within limits or well outside, it's just not a good model for a loooong-freebore rifle.

 

[Bonz]

With respect, what part about the fact it's 5 grains over what the bullet manufacturer says is a max load doesn't register? Barnes said to use the 100 TTSX data. They pressure test these loads, they don't play with factors in a computer program. They shoot it and they get a reading.

With respect to "only 5000 psi over", and "but I doubt it's dangerous", it's OVER pressure. And I would say a lot more than the doctored QL program shows. It's not a safe load to recommend to anyone. That's dangerous policy and practice to promote that on a forum that anyone can show up and read.

Giving even one person the idea they can somehow work over industry established limits and safe reloading practices is beyond me. It's saying the established rules only apply to everybody else. Chasing that last bit of velocity is good for growing hair on your chest only to have a gun potentially let loose and remove it.

Chasing limits with any cartridge and pushing it, means you need a bigger case to get the job you want done safely. Don't go there otherwise.

 

[jimbires]

here is a little quickload lesson . take it for what it's worth . the old saying junk in junk out holds true . if you're not going to try and calibrate quickload , you do need to stick with the books .

 

[jimbires]

With respect, what part about the fact it's 5 grains over what the bullet manufacturer says is a max load doesn't register? Barnes said to use the 100 TTSX data. They pressure test these loads, they don't play with factors in a computer program. They shoot it and they get a reading.

With respect to "only 5000 psi over", and "but I doubt it's dangerous", it's OVER pressure. And I would say a lot more than the doctored QL program shows. It's not a safe load to recommend to anyone. That's dangerous policy and practice to promote that on a forum that anyone can show up and read.

Giving even one person the idea they can somehow work over industry established limits and safe reloading practices is beyond me. It's saying the established rules only apply to everybody else. Chasing that last bit of velocity is good for growing hair on your chest only to have a gun potentially let loose and remove it.

Chasing limits with any cartridge and pushing it, means you need a bigger case to get the job you want done safely. Don't go there otherwise.

Bonz . I don't even know where to start with this bunch of hogwash .

did Barnes check the OP's water case capacity ? did Barnes adjust their findings to the OP's COAL ? did Barnes use his lot of powder ? did Barnes test rifle have the same freebore ? did Barnes test rifle have the same bore diameter ? are you sure Barnes test fires all their loads ?

IF the OP's load is in the 70000 or 80000 psi why isn't he using a hammer to open the bolt ? quickload TELLS the user to adjust the weighting factor , COAL ,water capacity , to get things to line up . can you adjust the book to do this ?

we'll finish this discussion when you get a little more experience . I'm done with this .

 

[RL338]

did Barnes check the OP's water case capacity ? did Barnes adjust their findings to the OP's COAL ? did Barnes use his lot of powder ? did Barnes test rifle have the same freebore ? did Barnes test rifle have the same bore diameter ? are you sure Barnes test fires all their loads ?

You make a great point Jim , no 2 rifles are the same.

 

[TackDriver284]

To me it seems pretty high, but without the OP's H20 case fill data, burn rate of the powder in relation to bullet speed, COAL, ambient temp, its hard to decipher if its a safe or dangerous load. The best way to identify pressure is shooting the rifle loads through a chronograph, check speed, primer flattening, blown primers, primers falling out of the pocket, heavy bolt lift, case head swipes, ejector mark on the head of the brass,,,all this will tell me if its safe or not. I would observe each brass once I eject it from the rifle and if pressure is seen, then I will stop shooting the remaining loads. I would put all the velocity / data I need into QL to adjust burn rate, etc after I shoot and see what QL will tell me, but its just a guide.
Some people just do not understand or have knowledge in reading pressure, no offense to anyone, then they should not hot rod a cartridge, but stay within book min and max loads. I , just like Jim, like to chase velocity, some rifles especially magnum rifles groups better then pushed fast but we must be able to read pressure and toy around with QL after for extra precautions and know when to stop shooting once we see pressure, and back off. I'm sure many of us here on this forum have the know how to as well. Good knowledgeable folks on this forum, we all learn from them.

 

[Bonz]

Bonz . I don't even know where to start with this bunch of hogwash .

did Barnes check the OP's water case capacity ? did Barnes adjust their findings to the OP's COAL ? did Barnes use his lot of powder ? did Barnes test rifle have the same freebore ? did Barnes test rifle have the same bore diameter ? are you sure Barnes test fires all their loads ?

IF the OP's load is in the 70000 or 80000 psi why isn't he using a hammer to open the bolt ? quickload TELLS the user to adjust the weighting factor , COAL ,water capacity , to get things to line up . can you adjust the book to do this ?

we'll finish this discussion when you get a little more experience . I'm done with this .

Adjust the factors, which you did and yielded about 5000 psi over. That load is over pressure. Do you disagree with your words? Is shooting loads or recommending someone to shoot over what is established as industry maximums a prudent thing to do? Yes or no.