Question for you guys that shoot long range...
- Thread starter McDAccountant
- Start date
Allow me to introduce another argument for the sub-10x glass on a LR rifle (by LR I mean out to 1k or so)....
I've long been a proponent of seeing the shot... the whole shot... and nothing but the shot. No one has a better look at where the bullet went than the shooter. So it is paramount that the shooter be able to see not only impact, but vapor trail and any other noticeable phenomenon. Going big glass makes this tougher and tougher. One may recover in time to see impact, but without seeing most (preferably all) of the shot... it is much more difficult to decipher the necessary correction. Further, the best spotter in the world can only call the shot based on the assumption that the X was in the right spot when the shot broke.... but the shooter is the sole person on the planet who KNOWS where the X was, and how to relate that to what he sees... and the spotter calls.
Sure, you can crank down that Hubble, but then you're looks are inconsistent... 10x at 450 yards... 16x at 725... 21x at 942... it's all random, even if you're running FFP. You can shoot 9-10x pretty easily inside 400 and still see everything, then be at no real disadvantage at longer ranges (again, inside 1k-ish).... and, you're giving your ballistic computer consistent information. Meaning, your brain has the same look all the time. Brains are far more powerful than we give them credit for... when given good, accurate, consistent information... they will produce amazingly accurate calculations via simple intuition. Once you completely see a couple hundred shots at the same magnification... you are better able to 'see' what's happening, and notice small things that will make hits more frequent. It's tough to learn.... if you can't see what's going on.
I shoot 3-9x40s or fixed 10x on pretty much everything... and I've noticed a fair number of people comment on 'seeing the bullet hit'... even when shooting my bigger rifles. My Sendero 7RM weighs exactly 10lbs... and bellows the 162 Amax at 3100 via 72 grains of Retumbo... it ain't a Hornet in the recoil department. But just last week a lady friend of mine, in her second time with that rifle, put 3 rounds on the 12"w x 18"t silhouette at 650 yards... and saw every one of them. Some of that is shooter talent (and good coaching?), a lot is shooting system... but the learning curve is drastically accelerated by keeping the magnification down enough to allow the shooter to see what transpires in the time twixt pin strike and bullet impact. Plus.... who just wants to hear the hit?
I've long been a proponent of seeing the shot... the whole shot... and nothing but the shot. No one has a better look at where the bullet went than the shooter. So it is paramount that the shooter be able to see not only impact, but vapor trail and any other noticeable phenomenon. Going big glass makes this tougher and tougher. One may recover in time to see impact, but without seeing most (preferably all) of the shot... it is much more difficult to decipher the necessary correction. Further, the best spotter in the world can only call the shot based on the assumption that the X was in the right spot when the shot broke.... but the shooter is the sole person on the planet who KNOWS where the X was, and how to relate that to what he sees... and the spotter calls.
Sure, you can crank down that Hubble, but then you're looks are inconsistent... 10x at 450 yards... 16x at 725... 21x at 942... it's all random, even if you're running FFP. You can shoot 9-10x pretty easily inside 400 and still see everything, then be at no real disadvantage at longer ranges (again, inside 1k-ish).... and, you're giving your ballistic computer consistent information. Meaning, your brain has the same look all the time. Brains are far more powerful than we give them credit for... when given good, accurate, consistent information... they will produce amazingly accurate calculations via simple intuition. Once you completely see a couple hundred shots at the same magnification... you are better able to 'see' what's happening, and notice small things that will make hits more frequent. It's tough to learn.... if you can't see what's going on.
I shoot 3-9x40s or fixed 10x on pretty much everything... and I've noticed a fair number of people comment on 'seeing the bullet hit'... even when shooting my bigger rifles. My Sendero 7RM weighs exactly 10lbs... and bellows the 162 Amax at 3100 via 72 grains of Retumbo... it ain't a Hornet in the recoil department. But just last week a lady friend of mine, in her second time with that rifle, put 3 rounds on the 12"w x 18"t silhouette at 650 yards... and saw every one of them. Some of that is shooter talent (and good coaching?), a lot is shooting system... but the learning curve is drastically accelerated by keeping the magnification down enough to allow the shooter to see what transpires in the time twixt pin strike and bullet impact. Plus.... who just wants to hear the hit?
Desert Fox
Handloader
- Aug 14, 2006
- 1,965
- 3
Songdog you must have Superman's eye.
On a man size silhouette target, a 3-9 or 10X scope is plenty up to 600 yards. At 1K it's a stretch but still doable. My favorite magnification for hunting is 4.5-14 and I seldom go above 12X. For 1K shoot however, I like the versatility afforded by 6.5-20 or by the 5.5-22, all cranked to the highest magnification.
If you can see vapor trail with a lower magnification scope, I'll guarantee that you will be able to see it better with a higher magnification scope. Don't ask me how I know this.
On a man size silhouette target, a 3-9 or 10X scope is plenty up to 600 yards. At 1K it's a stretch but still doable. My favorite magnification for hunting is 4.5-14 and I seldom go above 12X. For 1K shoot however, I like the versatility afforded by 6.5-20 or by the 5.5-22, all cranked to the highest magnification.
If you can see vapor trail with a lower magnification scope, I'll guarantee that you will be able to see it better with a higher magnification scope. Don't ask me how I know this.
I shoot 12" wide by 18" wide silhouettes out to 1k all the time... with 9x and 10x glass. What's the difference between shooting at 1k with a 10x scope... and 100 yds with irons? One of the pictures I posted has two rounds on the silhouette from 900... both fired by my brother Scott who has pretty poor eyes actually.... with the aforementioned 3-9x topped 7RM. His first time shooting beyond 300 for that matter.
I agree that vapor trails are awesome in a 25x spotting scope.... but that scope don't move when the gun goes off.... the scope on the gun bounces all over the place. You can't see vapor trail if the magnification is too great to afford the shooter a view of the line of flight during recoil.... period... you can't see where you ain't lookin'.
I hear ya... some folks need that magnification... old eyes or whatever. If you gotta have it, you gotta have it... can't hit what you can't see. My point is shoot the most glass that will allow you to see the shot... you'll be a better shooter for it. Feel free to ask me how I know this....
I agree that vapor trails are awesome in a 25x spotting scope.... but that scope don't move when the gun goes off.... the scope on the gun bounces all over the place. You can't see vapor trail if the magnification is too great to afford the shooter a view of the line of flight during recoil.... period... you can't see where you ain't lookin'.
I hear ya... some folks need that magnification... old eyes or whatever. If you gotta have it, you gotta have it... can't hit what you can't see. My point is shoot the most glass that will allow you to see the shot... you'll be a better shooter for it. Feel free to ask me how I know this....
If your scope is "bouncing all over" with the recoil of a 308 you may need to address your form??? I understand the ability to hit 1k targets with 9 power but i prefer to have the ability to see the exact point of aim on the target for precise information, meaning relaying to your brain your wind call and the reaction of the plate being straight back for a center hit or twisting right or left for a light or heavy wind dope thus setting the wind value for the rest of the station. 9x at 1K i s going to handicap that information. jmo.
longrangehunter
Handloader
- Jun 19, 2011
- 1,476
- 6
I will agree w/ DF and USMC about using a 3-9 beyond 600 yards even though I have made hits out to 1100+ range using a MK4 10x M3, but more does become better the further out you go past 600 yards.
Having said that I don't have and/or own anything greater then 15x. My own reason(s) for that is if I see the reticle moving all over the place because of a poor shooting field position I tend to wait and not pull the trigger. And since the window of opportunity to shoot an animal tends to disappear from that moment, I'll more then likely get the shot off if I don't see the scopes reticle moving. I also like having the lower magnification of 3x or 3.5x for hunting for the wide F.O.V. needed for running shots.
That and the glass needs to be super good beyond 12-15x. Which even on my Premier Heritage Tactical 3-15x50 I don't think the sight picture would improve with more magnification only because I don't think it's that great of glass? I say that only because the glass in my Tactical Kahles 312II is clearer then the Premier, and both of these scopes are not cheap $$$. I've also just avoided moving up in magnification because of the sight picture quality going down as the power goes up. Not that all scopes above 15x due, I had an older Leupold 45x target scope that was quite clear, but other then a very few scopes things tend to get very grainy when the magnification goes up a lot, and only a few scopes are super clear past 20x. At least to my aging eyes, I'll be 50 this year, and they aren't getting better with age! Something else I've noticed with age, my own field of view seems narrow when out stalking game, hence the other reason for the lower power range 3x I need when hunting.
But when it comes to extreme long range shooting, anything past 1,200 plus yards, you'll need the best glass and magnification money can buy to make first or second round hits. And I am not referring to walking in the hits here, animals don't wait around for those bullets to be walked in. First round hits long range in mountainous places from a field position are never easy even when the wind isn't blowing.
Unless you have a $27,000.00 Tracking Point XS1 sitting around! lol
Having said that I don't have and/or own anything greater then 15x. My own reason(s) for that is if I see the reticle moving all over the place because of a poor shooting field position I tend to wait and not pull the trigger. And since the window of opportunity to shoot an animal tends to disappear from that moment, I'll more then likely get the shot off if I don't see the scopes reticle moving. I also like having the lower magnification of 3x or 3.5x for hunting for the wide F.O.V. needed for running shots.
That and the glass needs to be super good beyond 12-15x. Which even on my Premier Heritage Tactical 3-15x50 I don't think the sight picture would improve with more magnification only because I don't think it's that great of glass? I say that only because the glass in my Tactical Kahles 312II is clearer then the Premier, and both of these scopes are not cheap $$$. I've also just avoided moving up in magnification because of the sight picture quality going down as the power goes up. Not that all scopes above 15x due, I had an older Leupold 45x target scope that was quite clear, but other then a very few scopes things tend to get very grainy when the magnification goes up a lot, and only a few scopes are super clear past 20x. At least to my aging eyes, I'll be 50 this year, and they aren't getting better with age! Something else I've noticed with age, my own field of view seems narrow when out stalking game, hence the other reason for the lower power range 3x I need when hunting.
But when it comes to extreme long range shooting, anything past 1,200 plus yards, you'll need the best glass and magnification money can buy to make first or second round hits. And I am not referring to walking in the hits here, animals don't wait around for those bullets to be walked in. First round hits long range in mountainous places from a field position are never easy even when the wind isn't blowing.
Unless you have a $27,000.00 Tracking Point XS1 sitting around! lol
remingtonman_25_06
Handloader
- Nov 17, 2005
- 2,807
- 402
I like 6.5-20 leupolds from 50-1000. Its about perfect for 95% of my shooting and hunting based on my needs and wants anyway.
I would like to try a 8.5-25 one of these days to however. Some days I feel like I could use the extra 5x on smaller targets at extended ranges.
Depends on size of target really and what you prefer, where your hunting, etc...
Looking at a deer is a helluva lot different then an elk at 1000 yards, bout half the size, antelope almost half again.
I also like fine duplex type reticles and prefer to dial my elevation and windage.
I would like to try a 8.5-25 one of these days to however. Some days I feel like I could use the extra 5x on smaller targets at extended ranges.
Depends on size of target really and what you prefer, where your hunting, etc...
Looking at a deer is a helluva lot different then an elk at 1000 yards, bout half the size, antelope almost half again.
I also like fine duplex type reticles and prefer to dial my elevation and windage.
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
- 2,618
- 0
So you to shoot long range. Here my advice. Don't try to jump from 200 to a 1000 yards.
Move to 300 yards, and once you are shooting MOA at 300 move out to 400 etc.
Find the limit of your existing equipement, then upgrade the weak link, what ever that may be. Yes, at some point you will want some better glass, something with a parallax adjustment, turrets, and an appropriate reticle.
Move to 300 yards, and once you are shooting MOA at 300 move out to 400 etc.
Find the limit of your existing equipement, then upgrade the weak link, what ever that may be. Yes, at some point you will want some better glass, something with a parallax adjustment, turrets, and an appropriate reticle.
