Quickload Request Please

[Rol_P]

Here is my first attempt to use quickload for load development. Any help will be most appreciated. Let me know if more input is needed to run a report.
Cartridge: 30-06
Barrel: 24"
Cases: Nosler trimmed 2.484" average H2O capacity of 10 cases 71.7grains fired cases with primers in place.
Primers: CCI BR2
Powder: H4350, 56.0 gr and 56.5 gr.
Bullet: Nosler 180 Partition p/n 16331
Comparator OAL 2.695
Cartrdge OAL: 3.314"

I am looking for the best accuracy with velocity being second priority. NYDan has given me a sheet of "Optimum Barrel Time vs. Barrel length, ms" so I guess that I try to identify a recipe that matches one of the nodes for my 24" barrel.

Looking forward to result, and thank you for your assistance. Rol

 

[kraky1]

Well...based on parameters heres what ql "thinks". I have to say your case capacity seems pretty strong compared to ql and its making the loads pretty mild. According to ql you could theoretically go way above published data.....and I'm not sure I'm buying into these results....but only one way to find out. It looks to me like if you believe in the node theory you are shooting for a barrel time of 1.2282. I have to admit I'm not sure i totally believe in the node theory but alot of my accurate loads seem to hang in those areas....so....maybe...LOL
Once you actually chrono the load we can adjust ql to match what happened and tell you exactly what to do to get to the node.

• Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
  Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
  Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.314 inch or 84.18 mm
  Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
  Powder : Hodgdon H4350
  
  Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
  incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
  CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
  
  Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
  % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
  
  -10.0 88 50.40 2410 2321 37930 8213 92.9 1.436
  -09.0 89 50.96 2435 2370 39091 8316 93.4 1.416
  -08.0 90 51.52 2461 2420 40288 8417 93.8 1.397
  -07.0 91 52.08 2486 2471 41517 8516 94.3 1.377
  -06.0 92 52.64 2512 2522 42778 8613 94.7 1.358
  -05.0 93 53.20 2537 2573 44071 8709 95.1 1.340
  -04.0 94 53.76 2563 2625 45400 8802 95.5 1.321
  -03.0 95 54.32 2588 2678 46768 8892 95.9 1.303
  -02.0 96 54.88 2614 2731 48178 8981 96.3 1.286
  -01.0 97 55.44 2639 2784 49631 9067 96.6 1.268
  +00.0 98 56.00 2665 2838 51128 9150 96.9 1.252 ! Near Maximum !
  +01.0 99 56.56 2690 2893 52672 9231 97.3 1.235 ! Near Maximum !
  +02.0 100 57.12 2716 2947 54262 9309 97.6 1.218 ! Near Maximum !
  +03.0 101 57.68 2741 3003 55903 9385 97.8 1.202 ! Near Maximum !
  +04.0 102 58.24 2766 3058 57594 9458 98.1 1.186 ! Near Maximum !
  +05.0 103 58.80 2791 3114 59338 9527 98.4 1.171 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  
  Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
  Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  +Ba 98 56.00 2788 3106 60239 9113 99.8 1.166 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  -Ba 98 56.00 2505 2508 42225 8776 90.5 1.362

 

[kraky1]

I may have to walk back my skepticism on the loads being mild. I see in my 2016 Hodgdon manual it's showing a max of 57.5 with a 180 Spitzer. That forecast could be a lot closer than I thought. Time to run them over the chrono and see how they come out!

 

[SJB358]

Rol, just my take and it's worth exactly what you paid for it, I run anything 06 based at the 65K PSI MAX. I don't have to load them all there, but if your looking for a certain accuracy witchcraft node QL will give you an idea if your between one or nearly on top of one. My point is don't be afraid of nudging a little above the book loads since rifles are so danged different along with powder capacity. Use the speed as your guide of PSI VS what the books are telling you. The books are telling you the pressure in their rifles, with their brass and lot of powder. Those three are fairly large variables to minimize and technically what usually makes handloads more accurate in our given rifle platform.

 

[Rol_P]

Fellas, THANK YOU for the prompt and insightful responses. I will load up some cartridges with 56.8, 57.0, and 57.2 grains of H4350 and see what I get for accuracy and velocity. Monday will likely be the first opportunity to set up over the Chronograph.

As to the max pressure published for the '06, I question that too, believing that it might be lawyer's influence due to the existence of some old Springfield 1903's with lower quality steel in them still being used and loaded for.

Thanks again for the QL run and supplementing narrative. Most appreciated. Rol

 

[Rol_P]

Today was the first window of opportunity for me to test the loads put together with Kraky's Quickload data. It was late afternoon before the sky cleared and the wind appeared to subside a little from what it was earlier, so off to the range I went. Unfortunately did not have time to set up the chrony but did test accuracy. These were 56.8, 57.0 and 57.2 grains of H4350 under Nosler 180 Part. in Nosler cases. I tried to shoot between gusts of about 13 mph if my cellphone weather app is accurate.



I believe that I am quite close to the node that will produce very good accuracy and velocity. These groups are printing about 1.2" higher than Federal Factory 180 Partitions so I am expecting higher than factory velocities. These loads are about 0.030" off the lands and I am curious what results I will achieve seating the bullets a little longer, say 0.025" and 0.020". Any other suggestions will be appreciated. Thank you Kraky and Scotty for your assistance. Rol

 

[SJB358]

56.8 looks really darned good for 5 shots.

Now that you've found the powder charge, I'd try doing .010" closer and further to see what happens. Looks very promising though.

 

[DrMike]

Scotty nailed it, Rol. Fine workup.

 

[kraky1]

Well the crazy thing is that at 56.8 that would be right there the predicted accuracy node should be based on the pretty well-known Barrel node chart. But.... it would really be good to have chrono results to See if the load performed the way quickload thought.
Regardless that would be the place to start playing with some seating depth adjustments now ...you might draw that thing into one big hole.....wooohooo!

 

[kraky1]

For those that are interested read down here to the line that says" comprehensive table of OBT times".
I'm not saying these things are actually a 100% reality but I will say that a lot of my accurate loads lined up being near his times.
And what the heck since we all like to reload and Dabble with different ideas why not give it a shot?
http://www.the-long-family.com/optimal% ... 20time.htm

 

[Dwh7271]

They seem to help kraky.
I downloaded the Excel sheet and use it.
Once you get a few chrono'd and adjust QL for capacity and actual burn from chrono readings it works well.

 

[kraky1]

Dwh.... that's exactly the procedure I follow..... chrono graph your loads...... adjust quick load to what "really" happened ...and then move towards the predicted node Barrel time. I'm really glad to see that tight group on the targets above but I wish the ones on each side of it were a little tighter. I guess a return trip to the range will be in order for proofing! Lol

 

[Rol_P]

In spite of the 37 degree temp., 9 mph winds per my cell phone weather data, and light flurries I went to the range with loads developed based upon the quickload data that Kracky1 has provided.
The groups were not as good as the targets posted earlier.
It was uncomfortable out there but I did get some velocity reads on my Chrony. With bullets that I had seated @ 2.683" - 2.685" the first shot registered no read on the chrony. The remaining 4 rounds averaged 2,729 fps. I know that this is an insufficent sample to a valid comparison. High was 2,745 and low was 2703, 42 fps extreme spread.

I fired 9 rounds of the same load seated @ 2.705", about 0.020 off the lands, and the average velocity was 2,788 fps. High was 2,824 and low was 2,766 fps. Extreme spread 58 fps.

Using the Chronograph results, albeit a small sample, is an average 59 fps variation with roughly 0.020" difference is seating depth what you would expect to see?

Unless I hear another suggestion, I think I will load some additional test loads with the same powder charge, 56.8 gr of H4350, working in smaller increments away from the 2.695" Comp. OAL that gave me the best results thus far. Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

I will be back on the range next week, hopefully with a break in the weather. Rol

 

[kraky1]

Well...this is why I never really monkey around checking case capacity till I do some chronographing. And to top it off you've proved a problem area with quickload. You proved as you got closer to the lands with a longer bullet setting pressure went up when quickload always thinks it will go down. (and it will to some degree in longer throated guns) but never like quickload predicts. I usually pick a pretty safe load and then chrono it and compare it to the standard settings in Ql. AND had I done that it would have come up with this which is pretty much dead nuts onto your average speeds.....

• Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (CIP)
  Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler PART SP 16331
  Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
  Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
  Powder : Hodgdon H4350
  
  Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
  incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
  CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
  
  Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
  % % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
  
  -10.0 94 51.12 2493 2484 42990 8345 94.2 1.351
  -09.0 95 51.69 2520 2537 44386 8442 94.7 1.331
  -08.0 96 52.26 2546 2591 45822 8537 95.1 1.312
  -07.0 97 52.82 2573 2646 47300 8630 95.5 1.293
  -06.0 98 53.39 2600 2701 48819 8721 95.9 1.275
  -05.0 99 53.96 2626 2757 50386 8808 96.3 1.257 ! Near Maximum !
  -04.0 100 54.53 2653 2813 52005 8893 96.7 1.239 ! Near Maximum !
  -03.0 101 55.10 2680 2870 53677 8976 97.0 1.222 ! Near Maximum !
  -02.0 102 55.66 2706 2928 55406 9055 97.3 1.204 ! Near Maximum !
  -01.0 103 56.23 2733 2985 57192 9132 97.7 1.188 ! Near Maximum !
  +00.0 104 56.80 2760 3044 59039 9205 97.9 1.171 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +01.0 105 57.37 2786 3103 60949 9276 98.2 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +02.0 106 57.94 2813 3162 62924 9343 98.5 1.139 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +03.0 107 58.50 2839 3222 64968 9407 98.7 1.123 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +04.0 108 59.07 2866 3282 67083 9468 98.9 1.108 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  +05.0 109 59.64 2892 3343 69273 9525 99.1 1.092 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  
  Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
  Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  +Ba 104 56.80 2879 3312 69690 9053 100.0 1.093 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
  Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
  -Ba 104 56.80 2600 2702 48643 8931 92.1 1.273

AND NOW TO TOP IT OFF YOU'VE REALLY GONE AND DONE IT.....now you aren't gonna help us prove the magic node theory cause you're caught in the middle of the nodes.....you should feel aweful.....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've had the same thing happen as I suspect happened on those first targets...getting a magic group I couldn't repeat. And I was suspicous that with bad groups so close to the charge that did so good something was fishy.

So...where do you go from here?? I'm anxious to hear what others say but it sure seems like neither day has been a good shooting day weather wise. AND...Id say you have a load pretty much where its got good speed but not going to be too hot. I think if it was me Id try another batch of the 56.8 load but on A NICE CALM DAY AND GIVE IT A TRY AGAIN???
If you wanted to try and take another shot at the node idea it looks like you'll have to drop down for a barrel time of 1.2282 which is right around 55 grains....maybe for giggles give that a go??

 

[kraky1]

Also...I see you asked if a 59 fps jump for the change in seating depth was normal....Id say for my experiance its alot. Was there anything different about the loads.....like how the brass was prepped or number of times fired etc??

 

[Dwh7271]

I'd retry under calm conditions also.
Just for grins, I'd try 3 or 4 loaded the same as the first target but at 56.6 to see if something is happening slightly below that 56.8 gr load. It might be interesting.

 

[Wyo7200]

What was the temp difference between the first group and 37* outing? 4350 is pretty stable compared to other powders, but if the temp difference is greater than than the obt range, it could just be cold weather.

Variation can be from neck tension too. I get a large swing from brass sized with a mandrel vs expansion ball. Probably .001-.0015 difference, but enough to swing 30-40fps.

 

[SJB358]

I'd like to see you repeat the 56.8 load. It looks good and if it repeats for you then you have the speed your looking for and if your numbers are consistent, chances are it'll come even closer together. Looks like your really making some great headway though Rol.

 

[RiverRider]

Well...this is why I never really monkey around checking case capacity till I do some chronographing. And to top it off you've proved a problem area with quickload. You proved as you got closer to the lands with a longer bullet setting pressure went up when quickload always thinks it will go down. (and it will to some degree in longer throated guns) but never like quickload predicts.

Kraky, have you ever fiddled with the "Shot Start (Initiation) Pressure" field? If you hold your cursor over it you will see the suggested values to use under different circumstances and with various bullet types.

I've watched the chronograph while testing seating depth, and I've come away with the impression that pressure increases due to proximity to the lands begins somewhere around 0.030" to 0.050" off. That may or may not be correct, I haven't pursued this in dedicated experiments.

I'd point out that the value entered into the start pressure field does not simply add linearly to the resultant peak pressure. I'd suggest this is due to the nature of progressive powders' response to changes in the very first portion (more specifically the slope) of the pressure curve.

Seeing all this has given me a lot to think about, and especially how to approach correcting the Ba field. Having two variables in play just doesn't add to simplicity.

 

[Rol_P]

Yesterday the sun was shining and temp 36 degrees and wind was reported @ 12mph. I returned to the range with the 56.8 grain and 55.0 grain Partition loads to see what happened with the 55.0 grain loads at the approximate node value predicted in the second run. The 55.0 grain loads were in weight sorted cases, variation 0.4 grains, annealed, trimmed to 2.484. Same CCI BR2 primers, same lot of H4350, and weight sorted 180 Partitions, 179.9 to 180.1 grains. I checked the seating depth of some Federal Premium 180 Nosler Partitions and the average was right around 2.620 Comparator OAL, so I included the 2.620 in both the 56.8 and 55.0 loads. Federal Factory 180's had produced slightly less than 1" @ 100 yds in previous tests.

The best groups were bullets seated @ 2.620" with 55.0 gr producing 1.360" group and 56.8 gr producing 1.366", which is similar to the factory seating depth. Average velocity with 55.0 grains was 2,677 fps while the 56.8 grains was 2,768 fps.

I am into my last pound of H4350 and last box of 180 Partitions so the search is on for more powder and bullets. Many thanks to all who have provided the Quickload runs and updates, comments and suggestions.

On another note, looking at the 165 grain Nosler Partitions and Accubonds, I see the following:
Partition 180 165
BC .474 .410
SD .271 .248

AccuBond 180 165
BC .507 .475
SD .271 .248

In the real world of hunting, does this make a significant difference in performance, especially penetration on elk and mule deer? I have yet to try 165 grain bullets in my 30-06, but given the frustration with my handloads I am tempted to try something different. Thanks for any suggestions. Rol