The magnum advantage: about 10%

[Antelope_Sniper]

In order to get the most out of a magnum, you need a longer barrel, and a slower powder. If you don't want a 26" or longer barrel, then forget the magnum and stick with a standard cartridge.

 

[Anonymous]

In order to get the most out of a magnum, you need a longer barrel, and a slower powder. If you don't want a 26" or longer barrel, then forget the magnum and stick with a standard cartridge.

??? I can get 3050+ out of my .300WSM with RL17 and 180gr out of a 24" barrel and 3300+ with 150s... why would I need another 2" of barrel?

 

[gerry]

Been thinking about this a bit before posting. Standard rounds work a lot better than a lot of people give them credit for (see DrMike's 280 Rem elk for example) and with today's modern bullets have even more effective range than the same rounds years ago. I know guys that think the 300 Mags are great for moose beyond 600 yards but a 30-06 or 308 win are pretty much useless on the same animals. It is hard to reason with people that just believe what they want regardless of facts but if a 300 is good for 600 yards a 30-06 is pretty much the same at 500 and the 308 not much behind that. When it comes to bears I find it hard to believe my 35 Whelen shooting a 250 gr slug @ 2600 is inferior to my 375 Ruger shooting a 260 gr @ 2800 fps, both are going to put big hole through the animal and smash a lot of bone. I do prefer my Whelen a lot over anything bigger since it kills well without kicking very hard. Cartridges like the 257 and 270 Wby's, 270 WSM and 264 WM have a place for those who just want to basically point and shoot at an animal within 350-400 yards.

 

[meatmachineman]

Gerry, your post got me to thinking as it reminded of a lesson in optics drilled into my head by some members here, just over on another forum. Essentially its a cost-benefit relationship and the point of diminishing returns.... and it seems to relate here. In optics, as the quality of glass increases, so does the price, but there gets to be a point where the increase in quality gets to be less and less but the cost goes up even more. There are definite advantages to the top end glass, but it definitely comes at a price and it is up to the buyer to determine if that extra little bit of quality is worth the cost to have it. Likewise in rifles, as velocity & energy increase, it too, comes at a cost in the form of recoil, powder, and usually ammo price. It too, gets to a point where the gains seem negligible compared to the costs involved, but once again, it is up to the shooter to determine where that point of stopping is.

Really, as long as the cartridge hits a minimum for the intended game and range (and this is just as subjective as the "need" for a magnum), I say happy hunting!

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

In order to get the most out of a magnum, you need a longer barrel, and a slower powder. If you don't want a 26" or longer barrel, then forget the magnum and stick with a standard cartridge.

??? I can get 3050+ out of my .300WSM with RL17 and 180gr out of a 24" barrel and 3300+ with 150s... why would I need another 2" of barrel?

Because that last 2 inches of barrel with give you an additional 100 FPS, and allow optimum velocity gains out of slower powders. Old Roy gained as much extra velociyt out of his cartridges by lengthening the barrels, and matching the powder selection to the barrel length, as he did out of the increased powder capacity.

If you are going to maximize your velocity potentinal, you might as well do it right.

 

[bobnob]

I kinda always thought the big person vs small person and ability to "handle" recoil was neither here nor there.

Sure, a small person can roll with heavy recoil. Why can't a heavy person also roll with recoil? They can.

I am neither huge nor small. 5 feet 11 inches. 101 kilos - about 220 odd lbs. I know if I am relaxed and shooting well I roll with the recoil as well as anyone and don't get hurt. If I tense up like fencing wire, I can get belted and bruised.

And I would submit that a 45 kilo woman can also tense up and get belted; the main difference when that happens is that I have a few extra inches of muscle and fat on my shoulder to absorb the kick.

I think the theory is a bit of a phurphy and shows that you can't explain felt recoil through plain physics.

 

[Dr. Vette]

I note that part of the problem is that there is no standard definition of what constitutes a magnum cartridge. For most, if it's belted and someone called it a "magnum" that's all it takes. Maybe the WSM's don't count because they're not belted? :roll: At least when you have an Ackley Improved cartridge there is some standardization with regard to the shoulder angle. So, to say that a/any magnum gains you 10% is a bit problematic because the starting point is all relative.

Compare the .308 Win to the .30-06 Spgfld. Is the 30-06 actually a magnum since it holds about 16% more powder?

I would agree that in general, adding more powder and having a larger case doesn't always gain much. Right now I'm really liking my 270s as I can get over 3000fps with a 130 or 140 grain bullet. It's within spitting distance of my 7mm Weatherbys with a bullet only marginally less in weight, and the recoil is notably less. For a carry rifle or anything in Michigan I can't see much advantage to going any larger. I'm even respecting it more with regard to larger game such as elk if one wanted to use it. With a premium bullet there's no reason why it can't be useful to 500 yards under the right conditions.

Having said that, I'm not trading in any of my 7mm Magnums - Remington or Weatherby - or my 340 Weatherby. They're still fun to shoot. :wink:

 

[Oldtrader3]

What Gerry said is also important. Most cartridges with a specific bullet weight which use the same bullet (i.e. .30-06 and .300 WSM, 180 grain) reach a point at 300-400 yards where the remaining velocity at that range is very close to the same, regardless of what speed the bullet started at. Unless your magnum can push a very high BC bullet, very fast, it will have not much advantage over a standard caliber way out there.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

What Gerry said is also important. Most cartridges with a specific bullet weight which use the same bullet (i.e. .30-06 and .300 WSM, 180 grain) reach a point at 300-400 yards where the remaining velocity at that range is very close to the same, regardless of what speed the bullet started at. Unless your magnum can push a very high BC bullet, very fast, it will have not much advantage over a standard caliber way out there.

OT, the numbers do not support your conclusion. Take the 180 gr NBT, at 3000, and 3300. Then compare the trajectories between 900 and 1000 yards at an altitute of 5280.

At 3k it drops 4.1 MOA
At 3.3k it drops 3.3 MOA.

So, in this long range example, a 10% increase in velocity results in a 20% reduction in bullet drop. At long range the effects of increased muzzle velocity should not be under appreciated....

 

[LD375]

Interesting topic Guy ..I truly believe that the standard calibers kill big game just as well as the magnums do, accuracy is far more important than shear speed in my eyes, but if the hunter/shooter can handel the recoil of the big magnums, and shoot them well, then my vote goes to the magnums, even if not needed. I guess not everyone loves Chevrolets kinda thing. As for me, I was shooting my dads .308 norma magnum and .338 win mag at the age of 12, and shot them well, hence my love for the magnums, do I need them vs the standard calibers, nah, but I'm hooked on the magnums, but that's just me ..again, shot placement is the key, a gut shot moose with a 30/06 or a .375 etc, is still a gut shot moose.
Lou

 

[Oldtrader3]

A-S, I was comparing MV which at 500 yards is only half the difference in remaining velocity as at the muzzle with many 180 grain loads.

 

[meatmachineman]

Interesting topic Guy ..I truly believe that the standard calibers kill big game just as well as the magnums do, accuracy is far more important than shear speed in my eyes, but if the hunter/shooter can handel the recoil of the big magnums, and shoot them well, then my vote goes to the magnums, even if not needed. I guess not everyone loves Chevrolets kinda thing. As for me, I was shooting my dads .308 norma magnum and .338 win mag at the age of 12, and shot them well, hence my love for the magnums, do I need them vs the standard calibers, nah, but I'm hooked on the magnums, but that's just me ..again, shot placement is the key, a gut shot moose with a 30/06 or a .375 etc, is still a gut shot moose.
Lou

Well put at the end there, Lou. Doesn't matter what you shoot, but practice and shoot it well.

Once shooting well, I then refer to the philosophy I use... I'd rather have and not need than need and not have.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Sorta off topic...

This thread got me to thinking, about elevation...I've spent the last 2-3 years getting to know my 30-06 out to 600 yards...for my home elevation of 1,300 feet.

At that elevation it carries what most consider "elk killing" power (1,200 ft. lbs.) to 600 yards...at 6,000 feet, it goes to 700 yards...at 8,000 feet it goes to 800 yards.

I've always known the effect elevation has on trajectory/ballistics but having never hunted anywhere besides Tennessee, North Carolina Virginia, Kentucky, and Oklahoma...I had never really given it much thought. There are places in TN and NC that are above 6,000 feet and I've been to all of them hiking and backpacking with my Dad when I was a kid...In TN those places are all in the Great Smoky Mountains Park (no hunting), Mount Mitchell in NC is not in the Smokies but is a state park, not sure if hunting is allowed there or not...

Anyway...hunting in WY or CO...or most of the rest of the western mountain states...a 30-06 at above 6,000 feet...is just as powerful as a 300 WM at 1,300 feet...at 800 yards. That is with the same bullet (168 BT) fired at 2,850 fps for the 30-06 and 3,100 fps with the 300WM.

I'm sure you guys that live there are used to this...but I found it interesting.

 

[meatmachineman]

I find it fascinating all the factors that go into play with ballistics... and altitude certainly is quite a factor. Just remember... all the factors that affect the 06 also affect the 300WM :wink:

Oddly, altitude is something I rarely factor in when I'm out shooting loads for hunting... and really should. My house sets at almost exactly 1/2 mile and my usual shooting spot is roughly the same... give or take 100 or 200 feet. But where I do some of my hunting less than an hour away is up near 6-7000'. I'm not sure of the actual difference I'd be seeing, but I'd imagine there'd be one.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

4,000 feet will make a difference...for my 30-06 it would be about .5 MOA at 600 yards.

Up to 300 yards its not enough to notice...past that the difference gets bigger the farther you go.

 

[Rigbymauser]

The non-magnum..10% disadvantage!!....Not really.

For me I have just as many non-magnums as "magnums". Enjoy all of them for what they are and for what they are capable of. For me it really boils down to what rifle I like today and what rifle I like tomorrow. It´s nice to have a gunlibrary.

My latest "book" is a danish Schultz & Larsen M65 in 6,5x57Mauser. Do I need it for the practical purpose?..Nope...do I like it?..Yes..so I bought it. Some day I will find a purpose too for this gun like all the others I have. :mrgreen:

Hey..Even a gun you don´t need is still nice to have..so why reject it?... :wink: .

 

[Oldtrader3]

I don't know where gun writers get their arbitrary numbers for energy to kill an elk for instance. I have shot an elk and he took a 180 grain Partition high lung hit through both lungs, at 140 yards from a .30-06. He walked away as though nothing happened. He followed his cows for a couple hundred yards before he went straddle legged and could no longer walk. That was about 2500 fp of energy and he just walked away. I finished him off with two more shots as he stood straddle legged.

 

[Richracer1]

I don't know where gun writers get their arbitrary numbers for energy to kill an elk for instance. I have shot an elk and he took a 180 grain Partition high lung hit through both lungs, at 140 yards from a .30-06. He walked away as though nothing happened. He followed his cows for a couple hundred yards before he went straddle legged and could no longer walk. That was about 2500 fp of energy and he just walked away. I finished him off with two more shots as he stood straddle legged.

Probably the same writers that froth at the mouth about velocity and never or hardly mention anything accuracy. I still like the phrase, "Velocity is nice, but accuracy kills".

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

A-S, I was comparing MV which at 500 yards is only half the difference in remaining velocity as at the muzzle with many 180 grain loads.

OT, I'm not so much concered with velocity itself, I'm appreciative of what it does for me.

A 10% increase in velocity results in a 10% increase in momentum, 20% increase in energy, and in general, a 25% decrease in the arc of the rainbow. There are all very useful when plugging game and long range, so magnum certainly have a place in my line up.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

I don't know where gun writers get their arbitrary numbers for energy to kill an elk for instance. I have shot an elk and he took a 180 grain Partition high lung hit through both lungs, at 140 yards from a .30-06. He walked away as though nothing happened. He followed his cows for a couple hundred yards before he went straddle legged and could no longer walk. That was about 2500 fp of energy and he just walked away. I finished him off with two more shots as he stood straddle legged.

That's why you always shoot elk twice. Regardless of how big your rifle is, or how good you think your first shot is, hit 'em again and be sure.