The magnum advantage: about 10%

[meatmachineman]

Just to add to the little guy vs big guy thought... Elmer Keith was not a big guy by any stretch of the imagination and he shot stuff that'd make me pee myself... and I don't much mind magnums at all. His theory in "Hell,I Was There"... assuming my memory serves me correctly, was bigger framed shooters offer more resistance to recoil and will feel more of what the gun has to offer whereas a smaller shooter like himself is forced to roll back with the recoil and won't have quite the experience as the larger shooter. Made sense to me.

A couple other things to add....
Although I now enjoy magnums, I wasn't always so fond of em. I used to top out with a 308. My old man was a firm believer that he'd never need anything more than his 308. The mindset just sunk into me. On a quest for an 06, a friend offered me a screaming deal on a 300WM. I took it and hated every ounce of it "magnumness." But I got used to shooting it and it wasn't as bad as I had built it up in my head. A few years later, a friend changed my thinking a bit and here what he put into perspective for me. Paraphrasing here (and mind you, we hunt mainly mulies and elk around here)...
"We are average guys with jobs. We don't get to hunt wherever and whenever we feel like it. We may get a few weekends or maybe up to two weeks if we're lucky with vacation timed right. Because of that I have come to a point where I will take the most gun I can shoot well. I do not want to be in a position where I'm looking at a critter and having to pass on a shot because I don't have the confidence that my rifle will have the horsepower. If the animal is beyond my ability or my gun's ability, so be it... I know I went into the woods with the most I could shoot well."

And finally.... I like to bash on certain cartridges (243s, 30-0Blands, 270Yawnchesters) just for the sake of being ignorant and obtuse although I actually like all of them, but I would be cautious in how we, as gun owners, view things. We really need to be supportive of each others tastes whether they follow suit with our own or not. We have been losing our rights little by little. I liken this to how black rifles were viewed. Many big game hunters (I know two personally... not counting the forums I frequent) were of the mindset of, "Go ahead and take em away... I don't like em, use em, and they serve no purpose." Well I happen to like both my AR-15s and would like to build another. What happens when their hunting rifles come up on the chopping block? "It'll never happen to hunting rifles!" Oh yeah? They are already referred to as "high powered" with evil connotations. The groundwork has been getting laid for a while now.

Ok now... let's all sing Kumbaya! :grin:

 

[tim629]

I think like everything else....magnums have their place.

for me hunting in the east that place just isn't in my gun safe.

I had a 7mag but it didn't fit me well so the felt recoil was increased and put a bad taste in my mouth, but also didn't need the magnum for deer & bear in PA/NY where my longest shot is well under 300 yards

For places like WildGene's pic, you can either close the distance or make up for the distance with more gun, on limited time hunting more gun makes sense.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Robert, we are losing our rights a lot, by a lot, in many states now!

It is funny though that I can sit at a bench and shoot a .375 Ouch & Ouch or a .340 Bee all afternoon and be none the worse for it at 150 pounds and 5'8" and you big guys (Robert, Scotty et al), I think, get pounded more than I do. I sat there two weeks ago a shot 40 rounds of max loads though my 9.3x74R without mussing a hair. The recoil is in the 40-45 pound range and I just roll with it. Look at the shorter Scots and English who were shooting 8 bores at elephant one hundred years ago!

 

[RiverRider]

Looking at Fotis's new toy, the .300 Winchester "Magnum" doesn't seem so much like a magnum, now does it? Really now...the belt doesn't do anything, the case capacity does. Whatever it is, if it's not enough you can always go shopping for a little more...so just where IS that magic line? I suggest there IS no magic line and that the "magnum" moniker is pretty danged meaningless. The point of diminishing returns is pretty much the same way---for me it's diminishing in a purely subjective sense and I think it's the same for everyone else: you all have your own definitions. Some guys just see no sense in living within the limits I set for my own uses, but the limits we set for ourselves are the only ones that are relevant.

 

[Oldtrader3]

The diminishing return is that you increase powder weight loading by 40% to get 10% more velocity and 40% more recoil!

 

[Guy Miner]

Interesting discussion. Kind of figured it would be. :grin:

I'm neither for or against the "magnum" cartridges. They are what they are, some use them, and some don't. For good reasons on both sides of that.

Fell prey to thinking that I "needed" a magnum long ago and opted for a .300 Win mag, and later a 7mm Rem mag. Even had a .300 Rem Ultra Mag for a while. All the time, I had a perfectly good .30-06 hanging around, under-employed. After a number of years of hunting I reflected back on my experience and grudgingly had to admit to myself that yes, I could have made all those shots just fine with my .30-06 or some other standard cartridge.

By far and away most of my shooting has been with standard cartridges, and most of my hunting in recent years as well. They do just fine...

I laugh at myself for ignoring a perfectly good .30-06 for so many years, then re-discovering it. I laugh at myself for my current infatuation with the .375 H&H, just what every mule deer hunter needs... :roll: Also find it pretty funny that about a half a heartbeat after I gave my youngest son the 6mm Rem, I turned around and bought another smallish bore, flat shooter; a .25-06 Remington this time. Found that I REALLY missed having a light recoiling, flat shooting hunting rifle. Sure fixed that!

It's been an interesting ride, from standards to magnums and back (for the most part) and I've enjoyed them all. Learned from them as well. Do wish I'd made the opportunity to hunt more of the bigger game species rather than just harvesting whatever legal mule deer buck crossed my path for so many years.

Enjoy your shooting, magnums or not.

Regards, Guy

 

[truck driver]

Thanks for the ride Guy, it was interesting. Made me stop and reflect on all the hunts I had been on the animals taken and thoose that weren't because I couldn't make or didn't want to take the chance of not making a clean kill. If I had a 7mm or 300 magnum at the time I would have taken the shots, would they have been right I'll never know. There are lots of situations out west, in Canada and Alaska that make magnums the right choice because of the added range and power they provide.
Are they for everyone probably not but that is why we have the right to choose.

 

[meatmachineman]

Robert, we are losing our rights a lot, by a lot, in many states now!

It is funny though that I can sit at a bench and shoot a .375 Ouch & Ouch or a .340 Bee all afternoon and be none the worse for it at 150 pounds and 5'8" and you big guys (Robert, Scotty et al), I think, get pounded more than I do. I sat there two weeks ago a shot 40 rounds of max loads though my 9.3x74R without mussing a hair. The recoil is in the 40-45 pound range and I just roll with it. Look at the shorter Scots and English who were shooting 8 bores at elephant one hundred years ago!

True and true! Charlie, at 6'5" and tickling 275, I feel a lot of recoil! LOL! When at a bench, I am usually hunkered over a bit, causing me to lean forward into the gun which has the potential to be miserable after a while. I only shoot like that if I'm going for a group. I much prefer a stool and sticks or just going offhand. My 338WM and 375Ruger can be a tad ill tempered for me on a bench especially if I can't get the seat low enough, but shooting offhand and they both become darned near mild mannered.

 

[tjen]

I see the advantage of a mag is to reach out further and simply that.

If your 30-06 is not impacting game as you think it should out to 300 yards just get a 35 Whelen and be done with it. All the energy in any bullet will do nothing if it is not transmitted to the game. I will take a larger heavier bullet over a smaller faster bullet for large game like moose and such.

Now if I need to make a 350-400 yard shot I would favor the faster mag of apropreate caliber. The comparison of the the two 338 mags was a fare apple to apples. Like comparing the 30-06 to the 308win (about 10%) and it handles heavier bullets better.

Michigan Outdoors showed a moose hunt where a 30-06 and a 270win was used. First bull hit at 150 yards made no indication it was hit for aout 3 seconds then it made a 5 yards circle and hit the ground. Next bull was as identical of shot as posible to the first but the bull shoulders shook at impact and the rear legs buckled and it went start down. It was a hunt that used Partition bullets for both with no mention of the bullets weight.

Is the 270win a better killer of moose sized game than the 30-06, over all I would say no. I have take moose with a 270win but since have used the 35 whelen. I could have bought a 300win mag but why? I am not shooting over 300 yards and even with the 250gr bullets at medium velocity its recoil is easier to handle than a 300mags recoil.

 

[Thebear_78]

To be fare I can only remember one time where I have passed on a shot due to the rifle I was carrying. While moose hunting up high in the mountains in early part of September I came across a gorgeous toklat interior grizzly. Not a particularly large bear, probably 7-7.5 foot, decent for an interior griz. Pale golden back and striking dark chocolate legs. Easily one of the prettiest bears I have ever seen.

I was able to get to within about 200-225 yards by sneaking around a large knob across a small gorge from where the bear was grazing on berries. The bear was facing me either head on to quartering to for over 20 minutes but never gave me a good broadside shot. Behind and below the bear was a tangle of steep nearly impenetrable brush, mixture of alders, devils club, and grass.

I had a winchester 300 win mag loaded with 180gr partitions. Fresh in my mind was the experience earlier that week of seeing one of these same loads stopped dead in the shoulder joint of a small spike/fork bull moose. Picture perfect nosler performance, 60% weight retention, good mushroom, just unable to punch thru that knot of bone.

I watched that bear the whole time right up until it disappeared into that thick tangle. I was unwilling to try to climb in that mess after a 3 wheeled, wounded bear.

Shortly after that I bought a 375 h&h and had the 300 rebarreled to 458 Lott.

Here is a picture of what a toklat color griz looks like. In my opinion the best looking color variant.

 

[JD338]

That is one beautiful bear!

JD338

 

[.280 Remington]

Wow, what a bear!

 

[Elkman]

I really like this post. As a former 06 shooter and currently a 300 WM shooter (42 years) I pretty much agree with what"s posted here. I love my 45/70, my 308, my 06 and several other "standard" cartridges. But when headed to the woods for elk, the worn out 300 is the first one I reach for. Several months back we had a discussion on what distance have we killed most of our game. I went back and looked at my list, and what I found was that its either on my side of 100 yards or at 300 yards plus. My records show that in my case the split is pretty even, in other words I kill about as many animals at 300+ as I do under 100 yards. This I believe is somewhat unusual, but is the primary reason that I moved up to the 300 WM. The country I primarily hunt lends its self to longer shots. Think about it, all I really have at 500 yards is an 06, but that extra 200 yards can make a big difference, not in the field always, but in the freezer.

 

[meatmachineman]

http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/cus ... lcnrg.html

Figured I'd toss this calculator on here so one can play with different bullet weights and speeds and see some of the differences beyond just velocity.

 

[Guy Miner]

Thebear_78 - thanks for posting the photo of that terrific grizzly! Yes, I think those interior grizz are about the best looking doggone bears! I hear they've got quite a temper too... Yeah, with something like that I think I'd err on the side of "too much" gun rather than "not enough" gun. From my own safe, that would mean the .375 H&H would make that hunt. No doubt. The repeater rather than the single shot rifle too.

Re energy - I'm not a big fan of using energy to determine killing/stopping power. The energy figures are worth noting, but it's just not something I rely on much. I do like a good bullet, placed well, and with sufficient velocity to both expand and penetrate well.

Of course the vast majority of my hunting experience is with mule deer, not elk, or moose or cape mammoths or whatever... And that may well color my thoughts on the matter. I just haven't seen any evidence that suggests a more "powerful" cartridge kills mule deer any better than a less powerful cartridge. The little 6mm Remington has been equally as effective as the big .300 magnums, and even larger rifles, in my experience.

Now, if I was basing my impressions on elk, moose or something else big & furry, I might have some different impressions. We are products of our experiences.

Okay - enough for now. Heading out for a half day mule deer scouting trip!

Guy

 

[FOTIS]

Gorgeous animal!

 

[DrMike]

TB-78,

We see that colour phase occasionally; but the more common is a chocolate bear in our AO. This is not a bear that I found, but representative of what we see in this area.



The honey colour is certainly beautiful. On the other hand, I'm rather taken with all grizzlies.

 

[wildgene]

...saw a few "Glacier bears" up around Yakutat when I worked there, a "regional" color phase that runs from a slate blue-grey to a glossy blue-black...

 

[Guest]

Hijack alert!

Interesting to see these bears, especially that last one, with such peaceful, calm, inquisitive looks on their faces. It's a notable juxtaposition set against their ability to almost instantaneously end the life of a human who ventured too close to the "cuteness." That last bear has a high "Disney" quotient to his expression, but I suspect he'd sooner eat Snow White than help her clean or dance while she sang...

Hijack over.

 

[Elkman]

The Bear pictures are beautiful, to say the least.

As most of you know I have hunted a 300 WM, since the very early 70's. Its been my go to rifle for elk every year. All of the best things have already been said about the cartridge. I can truly say however that after field testing on elk and deer for over 40 years, that the 300WM, coupled with the 180 gr. PT, gets the job done, every year, every time.