To Magnum or not to Magnum?

[roysclockgun]

I recently had a question from a gent who has successfully taken deer for over twenty years with a rifle chambered in 270Wby. This fall, he has his first elk hunt planned and his guide encouraged him to get a big bore magnum. He bought a rifle in 340Wby and finds that after 5 rounds, fired at the range, he is experiencing problems, handling the recoil and asked me which muzzle brake I would recommend. I told him to put away the 340Wby until he had a chance to go on a hunt for really dangerous game, and to use his tried and true 270Wby for elk.
I cannot understand an outfitter/guide, telling a client that he must have something more powerful than a 270Wby for elk, when most of us know that 270Win is perfectly adequate for the largest bull, provided the hunter knows his own range limitations and is willing to stick to them. With modern bonded bullets of at least 150gr, there is no bull elk alive who can withstand well placed
bullet from a 270Wby.
My acquaintance wrote back and said that the 340Wby rifle just may be for sale very soon.
Opinions?
Thanks,
Steven

 

[JD338]

From the guides perception, the problem is that some hunters are not really ready for a hunt. They are out of shape and do not do a lot of target practicing. Poor hits and a chase that can last for miles could make an outfitter recommend a big bore magnum in the hopes that a not so perfect shot could still result in a quick kill.

We all know that a magnum of any sort can not make up for poor shot placement. I am a magnum fan, shooting quite a bit in the off season. The only way to get past the recoil is to put a lot of time in on the range. Several short sessions, even 5-10 rounds will get most shooters acclimated to the recoil level of the big magnums.
I do shoot a big magnum, and from field positions including prone. A good recoil pad will make all the difference too.

The 340 Wby is a fantastic elk round. I would suggest your friend shoot 200 gr loads to get started. The 210 gr PT is an excellent bullet for elk.

Your friends 270 Wby is good for elk, the 340 Wby is just a lot better. :wink:

JD338

 

[buckfever]

That 270 Wby sould work great with either the 150 gr pt or better yet the 160 gr pt the Nosler reloading guide list the 160 at almost 3100 fps with imr 7828 that would make a great Elk round.

 

[Guy Miner]

I had all sorts of advice telling me to buy and use a .338 Win mag or larger for elk.

Didn't have a .338 and was reluctant to spend the cash for one, so a single 175 grain Nosler Partition from my 7mm RM had to suffice for elk. It did just fine. I'd recommend your friend pick a GOOD bullet, practice and make sure he's ready to put it where it counts. The elk will fall over just fine if hit right with a decent bullet from that .270 Wby.

Regards, Guy

 

[roysclockgun]

Thanks to all who replied. I sent the ideas on to my friend, Jim.
I, along with many hunters was for a while, swept up by the advice that I needed a big bore magnum for elk.
On my first elk hunt, I was flying to Colorado, sitting next to a hunter from another party. He inquired as to what rifle/cartridge I was using. I told him that I had worked up a load for 180gr Partition bullet for my old Model 70 Winchester, in 30-06. He scowed and said, "You know that you are undergunned!" I finished the flight, reading my book.
IMO the large bore magnums were originally for dangerous game and that is the area where they really shine. I criticize no one for using whatever they want to use for elk and moose, but I discovered early on, that those big deer are not bullet proof.
The only reason that I see to go with a big bore magnum for elk, is if you feel that you must stretch your range a bit and, of course, that leads to another discussion.
I admit, I have only killed two bull elk. One was with the afore mentioned 180gr 30-06 and second, with a 7mmRemMag, pushing a 175gr bullet.
I really believe that with the newer bullet designs, that do stay together much better, most of us could use a lighter bullet and still retain the penetration needed to cleanly kill the largest elk.
Steven

 

[bullet]

The 270Wby is more than enough and a good Nosler bullet will do the job.

 

[tjen]

First the 150gr 277 cal Partition is extreamly effective on elk period.
Next any guide that tells you the number one cartridge and load 30-06/180gr thats kills more elk each year is insufficent well I will just stop here cause I can't say any thing nice. :roll:

 

[DrMike]

The 340 Wby is an excellent elk round. However, the 270 Wby will certainly to the job, especially when loaded with a quality bullet. My hunting partner frequently uses a 7 mm STW with 160 grain Accubonds to take a variety of game, including elk, and it works quite well. Loaded with an AccuBond or a Partition of appropriate weight, the 270 Wby will perform very well on elk. That being said, if your friend can handle the recoil, the greater frontal area and the increased mass permitted by the 340 combined with the increase in kinetic energy will give an extra measure of confidence when an elk is hit.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

I've killed elk with my .270 Winchester, but prefer to use my .338 Win Mag. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot one with my 7mm STW.

Sometimes the bigger bullet will turn a bad hit into an acceptable hit. Of course, if it makes him flinch, the big rifles defeated it's purpose, and your buddy might come home empty handed.

For elk, shoot the biggest thing you are comfortable with. Overall, I would expect your buddy to do fine with the .270 Wby and either the 150gr Partition, or the 160gr AccuBond.

 

[FOTIS]

Although I am following suit with what the old timers have told me all along and going to smaller cartridges, I must admit that when it comes to elk bigger is better.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Since elk are my passion I have to put in my 2 cents worth.
Elk are big. A big bull will weigh about 4X what a big deer weighs. They can of course be brought down nicely with a good, centered heart/lung shot and people hunt them with calibers as small as 243.
The problem with smaller calibers and bullets (even controlled expansion bullets) is the margin for error. Take that 270 Wby for instance. On a 175# deer it's devestating. The hydrostatic shock from the velocity and energy will hemmorage the organs and shut down the nervous system instantly. That's probably why he uses it instead of a 243Win. The elk is capable of taking a lung shot or a raking shot that would dump a deer on it's butt and run for a mile or more showing no signs of the hit, never to be found. The biggest caliber and bullet you can shoot well will guarantee that won't happen. The 340 Weatherby is one of the finest elk calibers for close and long range shooting. The 225 gr. AccuBond compliments it perfectly. If the recoil is too much then a Decelerator recoil pad and or a muzzle break will cure the problem. He's not going to be sitting at a bench rest shooting 50 rounts at the elk. He'll probably shoot once or twice and the peace of mind of knowing that if he hit's the animal it will at least be slowed and probably go down quickly is worth the recoil. Untill you've seen an elk take 3 solid hits and not even flinch as it bounds off thrue the timber it's hard to believe.
Good luck to your friend.
Good Hunting
Elkhunt

 

[Big Squeeze]

I recently had a question from a gent who has successfully taken deer for over twenty years with a rifle chambered in 270Wby. This fall, he has his first elk hunt planned and his guide encouraged him to get a big bore magnum. He bought a rifle in 340Wby and finds that after 5 rounds, fired at the range, he is experiencing problems, handling the recoil and asked me which muzzle brake I would recommend. I told him to put away the 340Wby until he had a chance to go on a hunt for really dangerous game, and to use his tried and true 270Wby for elk.
I cannot understand an outfitter/guide, telling a client that he must have something more powerful than a 270Wby for elk, when most of us know that 270Win is perfectly adequate for the largest bull, provided the hunter knows his own range limitations and is willing to stick to them. With modern bonded bullets of at least 150gr, there is no bull elk alive who can withstand well placed
bullet from a 270Wby.
My acquaintance wrote back and said that the 340Wby rifle just may be for sale very soon.
Opinions?
Thanks,
Steven

...........................Upon the advice from the elk guide, your gent friend goes out and buys a 340 Wby., then goes to the range and after 5 rounds does not prefer the recoil!!! Yep! Emotions via bad advice, can sometimes overcome common sense and as a result, look what happens!!!!............Although bullet diameter and weight is important, the other important area to be considered is the bullet type. Your friend should have just said to the guide; "I`m using and sticking with my 270 Wby!" In the process, he would have saved alot of money and some aggravation..............Of course the .338 calibers are great elk rounds, but regardless, the shot must still be properly placed. With the right bullet, a shot with a properly placed .270 will down any elk vs. a shot from a poorly placed .338!........... I think that `ol Roy and `ol Jack would have had a few choice words for that guide???

 

[bullet]

This has been a fun thread to read. After reading it I feel very well armed for elk. Whether I use my 300Wby with a 180gr TSX or more preferably my 375Wby with a 300gr TSX at 2784fps. I think I would like to use my 375Wby and see what happens. I think a good shot with a 270Wby or even a 257Wby could kill and elk and there have been many who have done so. But in light of the size of the elk and it's ability to take a hard shot in the boiler maker I think I would be better served with my 375Wby creating a good margin of success and of course the 340Wby is from all reports an outstanding elk cartridge. Got to shoot what you can hit with though.

 

[HunterJim]

If your friend practiced with a .458, his .340 would not feel so bad!

Seriously, a lot of the recoil effect is between your ears, and if you learn how to manage it you will be able to shoot a medium like the .340 very well.

The comment about using 200 gr or 210 gr bullets is on the mark too. I liked the 210 Nosler Partition in my .338 Win for elk. Now a days I am using .375s (have tried .375 H&H and .376 Steyr, not using the .375 Ruger).

jim

 

[owenv]

For what it's worth....
I have a couple of cousins that have a working cattle ranch on the western slope of Colorado. In the fall they have an elk and mule deer guide service on their land. They say they loose more elk with the 7mm mag and any thing under that caliber. They sugest 300 mags and up. In a 1980 elk hunt I hit a 5x5 with my 30-06 at about 75 yds using 165gr. core-lokt cartridges, one square in the shoulder and another a little behind the shoulder, he ran down a canyon and back up the other side and disapeared over the top. He probebly ran about 1 1/2 to 2 miles(it sure seamed that far) before he passed. That was two more miles of packing out meat.
Last year I was lucky enough to finaly connect again with a 4x5 using 325wsm 200gr. accubonds. Hit him behind the shoulder and he dropped in his tracks.
As for the recoile problems with large mags, I just recently put a limbsaver pad on my 325wsm and now has about half the punch as before.

OV

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Bullet, We've seen the groups you shoot with that .375. You can back me up with that gun any day.

Roy, ultimatly, a good recoil pad and muzzle break might not be a bad idea if your friend intends to hunt elk over the long term. If it makes him feel more comfortable, and spend the trigger time it takes to become good with the big mangum, adventually, on that not very good shot on the last day of the season, he's going to appreciate it. But until he gets his ultimate elk slayer the way he wants it, take what works.

 

[bullet]

Bullet, We've seen the groups you shoot with that .375. You can back me up with that gun any day.

Thank you for the complement Antelope Sniper, that does mean a lot coming from you. I sure would like to shoot some Antelope with you and use my 357Wby, that certainly would be cool. :grin:

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Your welcome Bullet. :grin: It's always nice to have someone in Elk Camp with a big accurate gun. In my youth we had a friend who came Elk hunting with us that carried a .375 H&H. He had some strange kind of round nose, hollow point bullet that was around 350-400gr. It left big holes in dead elk. We Never had to chase and elk that he shot. I Can't imagine that .375 bee and those TSX bullets would be much different. Those big TSX on Antelope, now that would be fun!! :grin: :grin: :grin:

 

[tjen]

I would think twice about putting a 220gr speer from my 35 rem in an elk let alone an apropreate bullet from a 270win, 358win, or 35whelen.
Its how you hunt and what shoots you take. A 160gr Partition will do in any elk as long as it hits the vitils somewhere between 1800 and 2800 fps.

 

[bullet]

Yes, a friend of mine does it at times with his 257Wby. He is successful also. You can kill an elk with about anything but of course that is not all the story unless all the time you are lucky as well as a great shot. Even being a great shot and putting it where is it supose to be does not turn out good at times and especially with lighter bullets and smaller cartridges. Elk are different from elk to elk like bears are different from bear to bear. Most die fairly easy but it is the elk or bear that dies hard that I want to have that extra so that I do not have to chase or loose the game.