What would you try next .338WM

[Oldtrader3]

I have tried in the past on this forum to detail my experiences with the various .338 caliber bullets of which I shoot about 300-400+ rounds of a year, in three .338 different calibers (recently) plus, I have been doing so since 1969 with the .338 WM. I realize that this and $3.50 will buy me a Latte nowadays but.... However, there are a couple of things that are important in shooting the .338 WM or .340 type mag type cartridges in particular. Despite the obvious "degrees of freedom" issues with the earlier work that I did using 10-30 cases as a bullet weight sample size, the work was directionally correct and got both my .340 Bee and .338 Federal shooting sub-MOA groups repeatedly and predictably through the sorting of bullets into .3 grain weight groupings.

The primary dependant variable which affects grouping in this caliber of bullets is bullet weight variation, not case weight (2nd level dependency) or COAL (below 2nd dependency). I have weighed a lot of different caliber bullets from different manufacturers over the past 43 years (since 1969) when I got my first .338 WM, and have found that bullets which weigh more than 200 grains and are larger than .318 caliber, vary much more in weight proportionally than smaller bullets do. I already published a small study on this once here on this forum and do not want to bother repeating myself, again!

The most critical dependant variable which predicts accuracy or .338 bullets is in all cases, is bullet weight variation. In weighing .338 caliber bullets from several manufacturers, including Nosler, I have found that very small differences in swaged overall bullet weights make large differences in bullet weight with .338 bullets. By example, a .001 to .002 length variation in a 225 grain, .338 bullet can vary as much as 2.0 grains in bullet weight. This is because of the diameter and the forward ogive position of .338 bullets, compared to bullets that are under .308 caliber and which have much smaller weight variations and more rearward placed ogive radii. In the 225 grain, .338 Partition bullets which I have weighed just in the past two years, I have actually found bullets within a single 50 bullet box of regular Partition bullets which are over 2 grains in actual weight variation. This will affect accuracy, take my word for it, or you can test this hypothesis if you don't believe me.

Because of this extreme weight variation, I always weigh .338 bullets and sort into discrete groups of .3 grains, with extreme outliers (those bullets outside a .9 grain totally variance) being used as foulers or range fodder, not for group testing. Typically within a box of 225 gr or 250 gr Partitions, I will find (3) groupings of .3 grains with a couple of extreme outliers. I am strongly of the opinion that controlling COAL and perhaps weighing cases may help group size control at some level as a measurable dependant variable but if you do not weigh and sort .338 bullets, you will not achieve grouping standards of MOA or better at 300 yards, despite any other control of dependant variables outside of controlling bullet weight. This is of course FWIW.
Charlie

 

[nvbroncrider]

I have tried in the past on this forum to detail my experiences with the various .338 caliber bullets of which I shoot about 300-400+ rounds of a year, in three .338 different calibers (recently) plus, I have been doing so since 1969 with the .338 WM. I realize that this and $3.50 will buy me a Latte nowadays but.... However, there are a couple of things that are important in shooting the .338 WM or .340 type mag type cartridges in particular. Despite the obvious "degrees of freedom" issues with the earlier work that I did using 10-30 cases as a bullet weight sample size, the work was directionally correct and got both my .340 Bee and .338 Federal shooting sub-MOA groups repeatedly and predictably through the sorting of bullets into .3 grain weight groupings.

The primary dependant variable which affects grouping in this caliber of bullets is bullet weight variation, not case weight (2nd level dependency) or COAL (below 2nd dependency). I have weighed a lot of different caliber bullets from different manufacturers over the past 43 years (since 1969) when I got my first .338 WM, and have found that bullets which weigh more than 200 grains and are larger than .318 caliber, vary much more in weight proportionally than smaller bullets do. I already published a small study on this once here on this forum and do not want to bother repeating myself, again!

The most critical dependant variable which predicts accuracy or .338 bullets is in all cases, is bullet weight variation. In weighing .338 caliber bullets from several manufacturers, including Nosler, I have found that very small differences in swaged overall bullet weights make large differences in bullet weight with .338 bullets. By example, a .001 to .002 length variation in a 225 grain, .338 bullet can vary as much as 2.0 grains in bullet weight. This is because of the diameter and the forward ogive position of .338 bullets, compared to bullets that are under .308 caliber and which have much smaller weight variations and more rearward placed ogive radii. In the 225 grain, .338 Partition bullets which I have weighed just in the past two years, I have actually found bullets within a single 50 bullet box of regular Partition bullets which are over 2 grains in actual weight variation. This will affect accuracy, take my word for it, or you can test this hypothesis if you don't believe me.

Because of this extreme weight variation, I always weigh .338 bullets and sort into discrete groups of .3 grains, with extreme outliers (those bullets outside a .9 grain totally variance) being used as foulers or range fodder, not for group testing. Typically within a box of 225 gr or 250 gr Partitions, I will find (3) groupings of .3 grains with a couple of extreme outliers. I am strongly of the opinion that controlling COAL and perhaps weighing cases may help group size control at some level as a measurable dependant variable but if you do not weigh and sort .338 bullets, you will not achieve grouping standards of MOA or better at 300 yards, despite any other control of dependant variables outside of controlling bullet weight. This is of course FWIW.
Charlie

Awesome post Charlie. Between you saying this, Scotty's experience with the 160 AB and David showing the plano box bullet storage I'm well on my way to sorting the 3-5,000 bullets in my cabinet so I can find everything and make some real ammo. I got the micrometer seating die for the 280AI cause I wanted to make it a real shooter. Now one more thing to add to the list.

 

[SJB358]

^^ That is funny!

Scotty that 338wm of yours seems to shoot everything well. Nice work buddy.

As long as you all get a good laugh! :wink:

The 210 has never been in my rifle, it is just about the only one they make I haven't shot, but I should. I might be able to stop searching for "the bullet"! I do have a bag to try though.. Might give it a whirl later on..

 

[SJB358]

I have tried in the past on this forum to detail my experiences with the various .338 caliber bullets of which I shoot about 300-400+ rounds of a year, in three .338 different calibers (recently) plus, I have been doing so since 1969 with the .338 WM. I realize that this and $3.50 will buy me a Latte nowadays but.... However, there are a couple of things that are important in shooting the .338 WM or .340 type mag type cartridges in particular. Despite the obvious "degrees of freedom" issues with the earlier work that I did using 10-30 cases as a bullet weight sample size, the work was directionally correct and got both my .340 Bee and .338 Federal shooting sub-MOA groups repeatedly and predictably through the sorting of bullets into .3 grain weight groupings.

The primary dependant variable which affects grouping in this caliber of bullets is bullet weight variation, not case weight (2nd level dependency) or COAL (below 2nd dependency). I have weighed a lot of different caliber bullets from different manufacturers over the past 43 years (since 1969) when I got my first .338 WM, and have found that bullets which weigh more than 200 grains and are larger than .318 caliber, vary much more in weight proportionally than smaller bullets do. I already published a small study on this once here on this forum and do not want to bother repeating myself, again!

The most critical dependant variable which predicts accuracy or .338 bullets is in all cases, is bullet weight variation. In weighing .338 caliber bullets from several manufacturers, including Nosler, I have found that very small differences in swaged overall bullet weights make large differences in bullet weight with .338 bullets. By example, a .001 to .002 length variation in a 225 grain, .338 bullet can vary as much as 2.0 grains in bullet weight. This is because of the diameter and the forward ogive position of .338 bullets, compared to bullets that are under .308 caliber and which have much smaller weight variations and more rearward placed ogive radii. In the 225 grain, .338 Partition bullets which I have weighed just in the past two years, I have actually found bullets within a single 50 bullet box of regular Partition bullets which are over 2 grains in actual weight variation. This will affect accuracy, take my word for it, or you can test this hypothesis if you don't believe me.

Because of this extreme weight variation, I always weigh .338 bullets and sort into discrete groups of .3 grains, with extreme outliers (those bullets outside a .9 grain totally variance) being used as foulers or range fodder, not for group testing. Typically within a box of 225 gr or 250 gr Partitions, I will find (3) groupings of .3 grains with a couple of extreme outliers. I am strongly of the opinion that controlling COAL and perhaps weighing cases may help group size control at some level as a measurable dependant variable but if you do not weigh and sort .338 bullets, you will not achieve grouping standards of MOA or better at 300 yards, despite any other control of dependant variables outside of controlling bullet weight. This is of course FWIW.
Charlie

Charlie, that is great intel and I piddled around with the same bullets you spoke of and came to the same results. I weight sort my 338 and 35 cals. I don't think it hurts, that is for sure and it doesn't take long on a digital scale either. Thanks for reposting that.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Glad to help.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

Okay, I was wrong on the PT that I have, they are not 225 but 210 grain. I just put the remaining AB and GK on my scale. The GK were all with in .3 of a grain and the AB had 5 out of 44 that I could not group into a pile that were within .3 of each other. I plan on loading some PT up with the RL19 along with the GK and RL19. Lastly, I am going to load the 200 gr AB with some H4350. From there, I hope to get one close so I can get this rifle ready for Nov without having to shoot 100 rounds down range. Would you start fresh with a barrel cleaned by Sweets 7.62 or just hit the range with a rifle that has fired 9 rounds since the last 7.62 cleaning?

 

[Oldtrader3]

I never was able to get the 210 Partition to shoot as well as the 225 Partition, not at least in my .338 Federal or my .340 Bee. That is why I switched to the 225 gr Partition. Now, each rifle is different and many people use the 210 PT with complete satisfaction. I just never could get a (5) shot grouping with the 210 grain that did not have a flyer 1.5-2.0 inches out of the group with the other (4) bullets nearly touching. Again FWIW.

 

[JD338]

Charlie,

Both the 210 gr PT and the 225 gr PT shoot in the .4's in the 338 RUM. My notes indicate I have a 1.285" group with the 210 gr PT at 300 yds.
The 210 gr PT kills like lighting on Mule Deer, elk and Black bear, dropping everythng in their tracks with exit holes the size of a golf ball. My MV is 3200 fps.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

JD, I know that many use that 210 gr Partition with complete staisfaction in their .338 whatever? In fact, I used it for years in the .338 WM Browning which I had with great accuracy. I burned (6) boxes of (50) each of 210 gr Partitions through those two rifles, trying different loads, and never could get the accuracy that I do with the 225 gr Partition, go figure?

The same two rifles will shoot well under an inch with other bullets, just not that particular one. However, both of those rifles are also fussy with other bullets. They either like them and shoot small groups or they flyer on me with one shot per group. It is not the bullet because I have had good luck with them before and have loaded Partitions for all of my rifles of various calibers for 50 years.
Charlie

 

[SJB358]

WT, I would be fine with starting with 9 shots down the bore. It isn't a bench gun and should be just fine. Good luck buddy, hope something comes out for you. Looking forward to your results.

 

[bullet]

My 338Win Mag really like the 210 Partition, 225gr bullets and 250gr bullets. Now some took more work than others but my Ruger 338Win Mag is easy to load for and this provided me with a lot of options. Now my 340 Wby custom really likes the 225gr and 250gr bullets best and it is a beast (mine does not have a break but I don't want one) but it really shoots extremely well.

 

[Greg Nolan]

As Scotty said the 3" groups aren't a LITTLE problem. Something is way wrong. What kind of rifle is your 338? You said "new to you" so is it possible some sort of re-chamber or stock modification to the bedding may be a cause. If the scope is a tried, known good that helps also because even a Leupold can take a serious whack when hunting. One other thing would be the mounts. I have a new Rem. 798 and the factory mount holes are out of align with the barrel (that took a while to figure out) so I had to use a 1" aluminum tube in the rings to check and sure enough the rod was 1/2" to the right of the barrel at the muzzle. Even though the scope could be adjusted to compensate it was at max windage and the scope (Leupold) wouldn't track and hold a zero. The 338s I've owned have all been pretty decent with about any bullet or powder. Under 2" anyway.
Good luck on that one
Greg

 

[JD338]

JD, I know that many use that 210 gr Partition with complete staisfaction in their .338 whatever? In fact, I used it for years in the .338 WM Browning which I had with great accuracy. I burned (6) boxes of (50) each of 210 gr Partitions through those two rifles, trying different loads, and never could get the accuracy that I do with the 225 gr Partition, go figure?

The same two rifles will shoot well under an inch with other bullets, just not that particular one. However, both of those rifles are also fussy with other bullets. They either like them and shoot small groups or they flyer on me with one shot per group. It is not the bullet because I have had good luck with them before and have loaded Partitions for all of my rifles of various calibers for 50 years.
Charlie

Charlie,

I can't fault you for trying. :mrgreen: I think I would have given up after the 2nd box. The 225 gr PT is an excellent bullet. I shot quite a few of them and they shot very well. I also recovered a few in water jugs from 50 to 300 yds. Excellent performance too.

Mike Harris at Nosler shoots the 225 gr PT from his 340 Wby and has put one length wise through a bull elk. That is some serious penetration.
I think you have a winner!

JD338

 

[wisconsinteacher]

The rifle is a Winchester 70. The scope and bases are factory new. I can take a dollar bill and slide it down the barrel between the stock for most of the barrel length. I was able to get the groups on paper and have one of the three GK bullets hit the center of the target. The other two were 2" away from the center of the target.

 

[nvbroncrider]

So if I'm reading your post correctly you can't slide your dollar bill up to the receiver? If that's the case you may need to take the stock off and sand the barrel channel at the high spots until your dollar bill can be slid up to your receiver. Any touching of the stock from you barrel could be causing this accuracy issue. I would do this before I wasted any more time and effort at the bench or range. JMO.

 

[Greg Nolan]

I like realy like model 70s but I did have to send one new one back. It was one of the last before they shut down. shotgun pattern groups. The factory replaced it with a new gun. If all else fails Winchester can probably fix it faster and cheaper than a series of gunshop visits. It sounds like everything else is as it should be unless the recoil lug just isn't bedded properly.
Again, good luck.
Greg

 

[Oldtrader3]

Out of the 28 Model 70's that I have owned, I have had 2 of the new USRAC type rifles that would not shoot. This were a .338 WM (USRAC) Sporter with a crooked barrel to action azimuth and a .308 featherweight that would not shoot a clean barrel to a fouled barrel group at any time. I got rid of both as being beyond my ability to fix with hand tools. All of the 26 other calibers from .250 Savage to .375 Ouch & Ouch managed to shoot nearly MOA with a little tuning and the right scope.

All of my Alaskan .300 H&H and .338 WM rifles were great performers once I found the right loading combination. Yours should also once ou find the magic bullet for that rifle and load density. I am sure of it as my name is Charlie! So, I am sure that yours is only a temporary setback that will be solved and day now.

 

[SJB358]

The rifle is a Winchester 70. The scope and bases are factory new. I can take a dollar bill and slide it down the barrel between the stock for most of the barrel length. I was able to get the groups on paper and have one of the three GK bullets hit the center of the target. The other two were 2" away from the center of the target.

I would just pull the stock and take a peak at it WT. Not saying there is anything wrong, but it would be good to see what the bedding looks like. Sometimes, it just won't take to a certain bullet with a certain powder. I haven't found the 338 to be very sensitive, but again, every rifle is a different creature it seems. I think you are doing it very methodically, so maybe a bullet change will get you better results. If you try another bullet and it pulls in for you, you can probably assume it just didn't like the powder combo you were running along with the bullet profile. I had a heckuva time trying to make the 225 AB's shoot in my rifle. I finally got them, but it has taken alot more work than any other Nosler bullet.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I have had to pot in an epoxy land about maybe 0.030 inches thick into the fore end end tip on several recent manufacture Winchester Model 70's in order to make them shoot. This is no big deal. All it requires is making a pair of carboard dam spacers to contain the epoxy and hold them parallel and in place to cure overnight and catalyse. I usually just glue the carboard with rubber cement, leaving about 1/8 to 3/16 inch parallel gap between the the cardboard strips to fill with properly mixed epoxy. This will put some small amount of bearing pressure on the barrel and forend tip and will center it in the stock relief channel. Just don't forget release agent on the barrel, reassemble, let cure and trim.

I have modified a number of Model 70's by this method, particularly ones of modern manufacturing (USRAC). I then take a Dremel or an exacto knife once they have hardened and remove the carboard to clean the area up after the epoxy sets, leaving the lands behind and usually that is all that is required. to get these rifles to shoot better and more accurately.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

Well I found out why the dollar will not slide to the receiver. The stock is bedded. I am hoping that this rifle is not a lemon that someone else tried to make shoot then sold it.