What's your minumum

[onesonek]

I may have touched base on this sometime in another thread,,just can't recollect or find it.
This more a question of curiosity, just to compare the ifs, whats, and hows things may have changed
Years ago I remember reading an article, which was more a poll. I believe it was authored by John Wootters iirc, but not a 100% positive on that. Basically he interviewed 20 Guides, Outfitters, and some well known hunters that were in position of being able to hunt most anywhere anytime. Some would maybe call professional hunters, with literally 100's of biggame to their credit.
Anyhow, what I am curoius to, is kind of a now and then thingy.
So I ask, what do you consider minimum for elk, and then I'm going to add deer as a second category.
While the mention of cartridge is fine, I'm thinking more along the parameter's of, Caliber (rather than cartridge choice), Sectional Density, Terminal Velocity, and Terminal Energy. And again, not necessarily what you use, but,,,,,, what do you consider a minimum for these 2 critters?

 

[SJB358]

Great topic Dave. I really feel the 270 is my minimum cartridge for elk. I really would stick with the bigger PTs in the 150gr flavor. Coming out of my 270WSM I would feel pretty decent hunting elk anywhere with it. I know I could get by with others and smaller, but for the places I have been lucky enough to hunt that is my choice.

For deer, well, i haven't had any issues with anything 22-250 or larger. I do hunt with bigger rifles and bullets than that, but I wouldn't sit at home with a good 22-250 stoked with 60gr PTs ready to hunt either.

This should be a good read in awhile. So many different ways of hunting gets alot of opinions. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

Dave,

Personally, I consider .264 as a minimum for elk, taking into consideration distance of the shot and presentation of the animal. .257 is my minimum for deer. I prefer a residual energy of 1000 fpe for deer, and while that is sufficient for a small elk (cow or spike), I prefer an impact energy of at least 1500 fpe. Obviously, people use less, and quite successfully. However, and especially when the presentation is not just right, I want enough energy to get an animal's attention and enough sectional density/mass to break bone and penetrate to vitals.

 

[jmad_81]

In Oregon the legal min for elk is .243", and deer is any centerfire .224" I personally think that it should be at least .257" for elk. I have seen a few elk dropped with a 275 bee, and know a guy or two that have killed a bunch of elk with a 25-06.

I do believe that the ET, TTSX and GMX have really opened up a few doors for the .243 lovers though.

As with any size bore, its all about shot placement. I would take a confident shootet with a 120gr PT out of a 250 savage over an overgunned flinching magnum shooter anyday.

 

[str8meat]

this bull was killed by a 243 @ 502. since then i have taled him into more knock down power due to the spike rule. in eastern wa. he will be stepping up to a magnum next year.

 

[sask boy]

I have shot a number of Elk with my 270 win with either the Partition or the AccuBond on top. My new minimum once it get here is the 35 Whelen :mrgreen:
Really I believe it is more about confidence and shot placement but sometimes that energy is needed.

Blessings,
Dan

 

[super-7]

Here 6mm is the minimum legal cal, and I figure they do a # on deer sized game and at normal distances. I have seen deer taken cleanly with the 243 win out to 400 yrds, but would prefer shots under 300. I think in the lighter cals that bullet construction is vital. I should post the pic of an exit wound from my nephew's doe, it's impressive.

For elk/moose I think the 25-06 is bare minimum, again bullet constrution and placement is key. Although it would be interesting to know how many have been taken with the 30-30 over the years.

 

[Elkman]

For elk I like lots of horsepower, if "not" well hit, more is better, nothing makes up for a misplaced shot but I lean toward the 308 Win, 270 class of cartridges as minimum. I have known of and heard of a lot of elk lost will smaller. 150 grain Premimum bullets are a must.
For deer the 6mm's and up will do the job again with good heavy for caliber bullets.


As I have said before a rock sent speedily down a piece of galvanized pipe will kill. Our mission is to kill ethically, quickly, clean, and recover the animal.

 

[6mm Remington]

For elk a .257 caliber makes a sensible minimum with a good bullet such as the 115 or 120 gr. Partition. It can be done on elk as it was last year with my son and his 6mm with 90 gr. E-tips. The 6mm is a little on the light side, but with a bullet like the 90 gr. E-tip and 100 gr. Partition, they make it act like it's much larger! Good shot placement is still key. My son's elk took one shot at 350 yards and she might have traveled 25 yards before she dropped. Scotty shoots one of those fire breathing 264 Winchester magnums, and that is a great cartridge loaded with a 125 gr. Partition, 130 gr. AccuBond, or 140 gr. Partition. I think he left it off his list completely on accident because once he uses it on an elk, he'll be a believer!! :grin:

For deer the .243's such as the 6mm Remington are a great cartridge, but once again with the 22-250 and similar cartridges loaded with the 60 gr. Partition or similar "quality" bullets, they work fine. I've seen quite a few deer, antelope, and even a couple elk taken with the 22-250. A rancher friend from central Montana who grew up with my father uses the 22-250 on deer and antelope, and has taken several elk with it. He's stopped using it on elk as it is too small, and his big gun now for elk is the 6mm Remington. He was born and raised in that country though and has all season long to hunt with all the mentioned animals sometimes within a stones throw of his house, so it's different for someone like him that it would be for a lot of hunters who don't shoot very often, and their hunting trips are very limited in the amount of time they have to kill an elk or deer, so to them a larger caliber becomes more important.

David

 

[JD338]

For elk, I think the 270 Win is the min. Deer min is the 243 Win.
My personal feeling is there is no replacement for displacement.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

My own personal preference after having some elk that were not very cooperative and some older bullets that did not quite work as advertised, is .30-06 or above, with 180 grain premium bullet or above. That is inclusive for all elk, all conditions, all of the time, all angles, no excuses.

I fully realise that many, many elk have been killed with .25-20's, .32-20's and .243's but not by me!

For deer, I have killed the vast majority of my deer (up to 360 pounds) with a .270 Winchester and a 130 gr Partition bullet (since 1964). No complaints and all (but one) with one-shot kills from 30 feet to 350 yards. If you are not recoil shy, why not use a little bigger gun? However, I must admit as I get older, I am liking that .257 Roberts +P better for deer.

 

[mcseal2]

I can't argue much with what has been posted already.

The friend I hunt with in Wyoming for elk has killed a lot of mature 300" plus bulls with his 270 win and 130gr winchester power point bullets. His walls are full of mounts, they work. He has absolute confidence in that gun and load, believing they both have mystical bull-killing powers and they work for him. That confidence also helps him place his bullets very well.

I start backward when deciding what I want for bullet performance. I decide what bullet weight, ballistic coefficient, and velocity I want first. Then I decide what cartridge and barrel length I need to get there. For a deer rifle I prefer an AccuBond around 140gr with a BC around .500 at around 3000fps. For elk I want at least a 180-200gr AccuBond with the same criteria.

Now to the question, my deer rifle criteria would be my minimum for elk, and I'd feel comfortable taking most shots with them. I shoot my deer rifles alot and can shoot them well. I have taken quite a few deer with a 243 or 6mm and 85-100gr bullets with quick kills also. That said for me a minimum isn't a question of what works on a perfect broadside shot, it's what I feel comfortable with on the tough quartering shots. I'm a trophy hunter and I want to be able to take a shot at any reasonable angle with confidence. I want at least a mid-size cartridge for the game I'm hunting with a good long high BC & SD bullet to give me the confidence to make a tough shot. If I'm confident in the gun I'm confident in myself.

 

[Oldtrader3]

McSeal, I am getting older and am not much of a trophy hunter any more. However, there is a really strong argument for running a couple of calibers that are capable of doing either elk or deer. I was thinking some more about it and realized that owning a .338 Federal and .340 Weatherby which are the two rifles that I practice with the most for sharpening shooting skills anyway, why not just carry around what I already shoot to practice with weekly anyway?

The other side of this coin is tha fact of DRT. I have some physical limits in my life now and everything that I can do upfront to assure a DRT on any game that I shoot is really helpful to keep me from overextending the few physical resources that I have left to extend regardless.

Shooting skill or recoil have never been issues with me. It is all physical now and resource constrained.

 

[hardpan]

Well, on my ranch, I recommend 7mm mag or greater. But, lots of elk have been taken with smaller calibers. However, i have to assume that I will not get a perfect broadside, or neck shot placement, or ear hole. i want an exit hole and a blood trail. We have killed cow elk with a .22 mag, but I cannot recommend that. Bottom line, if you come to hunt with something smaller than a 7mm, and cannot shot a 1.5 inch group at 100, you likely will not be hunting elk on my place. With the 7mm, you can shot a 6 inch group, and i can still get you an animal.

Another way to look at it, I want 2000 ft lbs of knockdown. And a fairly large bullet. Deer are way different,
hardpan

 

[Polaris]

Can't speak for elk but I do have a lot of deer experience tracking wounded game. I'm considered a bit of a wounded deer rain man where I hunt. People I've never met hear that I'm good at it and usually up for a good challenge. They show up at camp asking for help. Found a lot of other peoples deer, lost some. I'm a huge believer in exit wounds.

Most deer I've recovered after very hard, long trails with shots that should have easily anchored them were hit with light bullets from .270 or smaller calibers. Our deer are tough up here, lots of fat and winter fur. They eat light fast bullets for lunch. For big northern deer I'm a fan of guns and loads more apropriate for elk or big mulies. I think the 6,5X55 or 260 rem with a heavy bullet is a fair minimum. The 6mm/100gr part will do the job, but the 6,5 will do it better without much increase in recoil. In the 270 I favor bullets of 140 or 150, 7mms 150 or bigger, 30 cals 150 Partition or Speer mag tip or 165 and up cup and core. Heavy and slow definately does a good job too if you don't mind a bit of blood trailing. Seen a lot of deer dumped with a 170 gr. FP.

 

[mcseal2]

McSeal, I am getting older and am not much of a trophy hunter any more. However, there is a really strong argument for running a couple of calibers that are capable of doing either elk or deer. I was thinking some more about it and realized that owning a .338 Federal and .340 Weatherby which are the two rifles that I practice with the most for sharpening shooting skills anyway, why not just carry around what I already shoot to practice with weekly anyway?

The other side of this coin is tha fact of DRT. I have some physical limits in my life now and everything that I can do upfront to assure a DRT on any game that I shoot is really helpful to keep me from overextending the few physical resources that I have left to extend regardless.

Shooting skill or recoil have never been issues with me. It is all physical now and resource constrained.

Not a bad plan, you will always shoot better with what you practice with and have confidence in. I try to do that by keeping the trajectory similar in my hunting rifles, a 140gr bullet with a BC of .500 and a velocity of 3000fps will fly real similar to a 180gr with the same BC and velocity. That way my elk rifle will use the same holds for range and windage as my deer gun. I have developed a flinch and I try to practice more with smaller guns now. I used to shoot my 300 to much once I learned to reload, I wouldn't let the bruises heal between shooting practice and I started flinching.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I have started taking a smaller gun with me when I go to the range along with a magunm. That way I can switch off and get some relief if the recoil starts bothering me. What I am talking about is taking the .340 Weatherby with the .257 Roberts or .270 Win for a relief weapon. That way, I can shoot 3-4 groups of magnum and 3-4 groups of something smaller for a respite.

Plus, I used to take 4-5 rifles to the range each session. Now I just take two and maybe a rimfire or something.

 

[Guy Miner]

Am not much of an elk hunter - having taken only one nice sized bull, with a 7mm Rem mag and a single 175 gr Nosler Partition. That certainly worked, and worked well.

Several of my local hunting/shooting friends have told me stories of great success on elk with their .25-06 rifles - I always thought my .25-06 was more suitable for deer & coyotes than for elk, but they swear it's a decent elk rifle when loaded with good bullets.

For deer, a good .243/6mm with 95 or 100 grain quality bullets has proven to work very well, and I'm happy with that level as a minimum. I read of guys using the .223, and I've shot a number of injured deer with my issued AR-15 to put them down. It works, but isn't my first choice for a hunting rifle.

Funny, with deer I haven't seen any difference in dropping/killing power between the little 6mm/100 grain and the bigger .30-06's, the magnums or even a big bore Marlin lever gun. Hit well, all the deer have dropped quickly, usually instantly, and rarely requiring a second shot. I'm not convinced that a particularly large or powerful rifle is required to cleanly take deer, not at all.

The bigger calibers do leave an undeniably bigger exit wound - and I can see where that could be a huge benefit if tracking was required. I hadn't hunted deer with a .30 caliber rifle in a while, my son never had. We were both surprised at the large exit wounds on our bucks this year, using the .30-06 & .308 Win.

I'm a simple guy who likes simple things - like one load per rifle. The 165 gr .30 cal bullet has become my favored "general purpose" choice. An argument could also be made for the 180's, and heck, I've recently read on this forum that a moose can be taken with a 150 gr E-Tip from a little ol' .308 Win. The new mono-metal bullets like the E-Tip are capable of penetration I'd never expect from such light bullets... Amazing stuff, and requires a shift in my thinking.

Regards, Guy

 

[Oldtrader3]

Guy, I have killed at least a few deer with most of the more available calibers from .243, 6mm, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts and .25-06 up to .338. Most were one shot kills without drama. However, all of the deer that I have shot with .270 Win, 7mm Mags, .280's and .30-06's were kills which most of the time, ended with the deer not moving more than 2 steps from where I shot them. This of course happens when they are hit well.

I have had a few deer that I have shot with .243's and .even .25-06's that wandered around acting very undead for a couple minutes, despite the fact that they were mortally wounded and the bullet had passed completely through their lungs and arteries. These were mostly longer range shots at 300+ yards and the shock was diminished. This convinced me to not use the smaller calibers at ranges over 250 yards.

I also realise that there are various legitimate reasons why people use smaller calibers on deer and not everybody wants to shoot a .27 caliber or larger for deer. I just really am in favor of having these animals die in their tracks, whenever possible. I have used a .270 for most of my deer for 40 years and it performs very well on these sized animals almost all of the time.

However, I once shot a pronghorn with a 130 gr Partition (.270) face on at about 200 yards and had the bullet pass through the frontal chest and entire animal and not kill it. The animal was able to run a couple 100 yards at full tilt until I shot him again. Strange stuff happens sometimes and having reserve power helps.

Just my $.02

 

[Guy Miner]

I won't be at all surprised if I'm doing more hunting with my .308 & .30-06 rifles in the future. Why not? :grin: