What's your minumum

[nvbroncrider]

I am one of those responsible for the "acrimony" on the 24 hour Campfire, it has been very spirited at times. I usually stay out of those but could not keep my keys quiet this time. Here is one of my earlier posts.

Quote:
"A hunter should not choose the caliber, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong." - Bob Hagel

In my opinion after 50 years hunting elk in 4 different states. I believe that Bob Hagel says it well, the 243 is at best a minimum cartridge suitable for elk. As I posted last week in another subject the energy recommended by many for elk is 1800 ft lbs., the minimum is 1500 ft. lbs. , the 243 barely reaches the mininum recommended at 100 yards. I have dug several .243 caliber bullets out of elk and deer both, one elk had 4 in him and was still on his feet moving when I killed him. With proper animal presentation and good shot placement one can kill an animal with most anything fired down a peice of gavalinized pipe. But as Hagle said our goal is to have enough gun when things go wrong. I believe those whom have developed the 1800, and 1500 ft lbs. guideance also believed the same way. As do I, and why for the last 40 years have been carrying a 300 Win Mag., (and I don't flinch) in case you wonder.

This post was after another gentleman was essentially stating that if you can kill elephants with a 6mm, then elk should be easier. I believe his reference was to Bell, in Africa.

It was Bell's .275 Rigby which is a clone to the 7 Mauser. There's another article about is in the #2 or 3 Nosler manual under the .243 Winchester if I remember right. If we want to argue this much more does this make Sharp stick hunting unethical?

 

[onesonek]

An application using a bullet with more mass, and of a "solid" design at short range for brain pan kills, isn't even in the same realm. Neither is comparing archery. At that range in the video, there was about or less than 800 ft/lbs.. This is below the generally excepted minimums.
Tell me what changed? It wasn't that many years ago, when 300 yds was considerd a very long shot!
I'm also not so sure it is a matter of ethics, rather than values. Seems to me, more and more are valuing their shooting skills, rather than their hunting skills.
And from what I see at the range, the avg person's shooting skills are questionable even at 400 yds..

 

[akhunter]

I wouldn't feel undergunned with a 243 win and 85gr TSX bullets. A poke to the vitals and the game is over.... :mrgreen:

 

[35 Whelen]

This is a fine thread. And of course one that could never be truely over. I personally would say that a 30/06 with a 180gr bullet with a reputation for consistent performace as a minimum level to start with . I have shot; and seen shot a fair number of Elk and Moose both with .243s ,6.5x55s and lots with .270s; and on standing shots where you can hit them exactly where you want to they all work fine.[ A thousand pound moose will drop just as fast as a 100lb deer shot in the side of the head with a .243 ] I would not however say that they are great elk cartridges if you are confronted with some other style of shot. So the question is very tilted ................ if everything is in your favor they have killed thousands with a 30-30 ? Is that a really good Elk rifle .......... probably NOT.
The eskimos love to use .223 Ruger Ranch Rifles years ago to shoot Polar Bears; is that a good Bears gun, I doubt it...........
I am guessing one of the finest Elk guns ever lugged into the field for all around performace if you can handle the recoil and dont mind lugging around a big heavy Magnum gun is the .338WM. But do you need it to kill a bull standing perfectly still as a photograph at 100yds......... nope. Is it probably the difference between tracking one for miles you hit too far back or too far forward or too high or too low ............. it could be. They all work swell in text book conditions at moderate ranges but to set a real minimum for animals over 600lbs peoples experences shooting deer are not that valueable as this is a compleatly different application. In our experences to kill animals that size I like a 225-250 gr bullet going 2700/2600 fps. That WILL get it done EVERYTIME. I used to shoot elk with a warm 200gr Nosler PT load in my 30/06 and it worked good.................. I then killed them with .338s and that worked alot better on the less than perfect shots. The recoil was rough and the gun was to long and bulky but it was on a compleately different level than the 06. It flattened Alaskan bears to the point I just up and sold my old .375 Sako because I never used it anymore.
Nowadays I have sold the .338 as well and have found that the minimum is now just a plain jane old 35 Whelen does 98% what the .338 did for us ............IMHO

 

[DrMike]

35 Whelen,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your contribution. Consequently, a lot of people will like your handle as there seem to be a number of 35 calibre aficionados lurking about. If confined to using but one rifle in areas holding moose, elk and large bears, one could do far worse than arm himself with a 35 Whelen.

 

[SJB358]

This is a fine thread. And of course one that could never be truely over. I personally would say that a 30/06 with a 180gr bullet with a reputation for consistent performace as a minimum level to start with . I have shot; and seen shot a fair number of Elk and Moose both with .243s ,6.5x55s and lots with .270s; and on standing shots where you can hit them exactly where you want to they all work fine.[ A thousand pound moose will drop just as fast as a 100lb deer shot in the side of the head with a .243 ] I would not however say that they are great elk cartridges if you are confronted with some other style of shot. So the question is very tilted ................ if everything is in your favor they have killed thousands with a 30-30 ? Is that a really good Elk rifle .......... probably NOT.
The eskimos love to use .223 Ruger Ranch Rifles years ago to shoot Polar Bears; is that a good Bears gun, I doubt it...........
I am guessing one of the finest Elk guns ever lugged into the field for all around performace if you can handle the recoil and dont mind lugging around a big heavy Magnum gun is the .338WM. But do you need it to kill a bull standing perfectly still as a photograph at 100yds......... nope. Is it probably the difference between tracking one for miles you hit too far back or too far forward or too high or too low ............. it could be. They all work swell in text book conditions at moderate ranges but to set a real minimum for animals over 600lbs peoples experences shooting deer are not that valueable as this is a compleatly different application. In our experences to kill animals that size I like a 225-250 gr bullet going 2700/2600 fps. That WILL get it done EVERYTIME. I used to shoot elk with a warm 200gr Nosler PT load in my 30/06 and it worked good.................. I then killed them with .338s and that worked alot better on the less than perfect shots. The recoil was rough and the gun was to long and bulky but it was on a compleately different level than the 06. It flattened Alaskan bears to the point I just up and sold my old .375 Sako because I never used it anymore.
Nowadays I have sold the .338 as well and have found that the minimum is now just a plain jane old 35 Whelen does 98% what the .338 did for us ............IMHO

35 Whelen, welcome to the forum buddy! Your in great company here at Nosler. Scotty

 

[bullet]

Yes, welcome to the forum and Scotty is right about the company on this forum. :mrgreen:

 

[onesonek]

Yes,,,Welcome to the forum!
I understand after thinking about it, what you are saying about being tilted, and agree.
It pretty much does boil down the circumstances and conditions.
There is also no doubt in my mind, by increasing bore diameter effectivness goes up, even if energy levels are the same as a smaller bullet diameter. I think one can compensate somewhat with the smaller, by going with a heavier (more sectional density) in the smaller calibers. But most often the bullet weights available in the lesser, increase limitations. For Elk, my personal thoughts are, SD min. of .250 is about it, (but prefer more myself). And with that I wouldn't take on much bone or a angling shot, even with a Partition. This is why I also think the .30-06 with a 180gr. (preferably NPT), is a sensible mininum. 200 gr.s with non Premiums. But here again, the Mono's have changed it somewhat, with their higher weight retention. They would be the only bullets I would consider in a .25 bore or less. But that's just me and my opinion. I still prefer more frontal area.

Like you mentioned, not always does the perfect broadside placement present itself. So with lesser calibers, for me means the greater possibility of having to pass on certain situations. Not that it won't happen with larger calibers, but it does change things in my experience. Beyond that, regardless of how much energy a round generates, myself personally, very very seldom will shoot any big game animal much beyond the PBR capability of the round, figuring usually about 1/3 the animals kill zone. When I have, the circumstances and conditions, must be darn near perfect. And then a 100 yds further is it, or I pass or do what I can to get closer. If that isn't possible, well,,,,,,that's huntin

 

[35 Whelen]

Hey thanks for the welcome and I think your comment on the caliber is spot on. After guiding in Alaska for 25 years it finally dawned on me that I really only needed one gun! The Whelen will do it all thats for sure................. and while I still stick to a .270 for deer sized animals; when they start to weigh in at over 600lbs; I now always take the 'Colonel"! I used a .338 WM for years and really found the Whelen is 98% of the old .338 without that long barrel, and extra weight, and fierce recoil.
Thanks Scotty, you allready know me from one of the other boards and I wont tell you the username over there and see how long it takes you to figure it out?????[I am guessing about one more post!]
Onesonek, [I agree with your post compleatly and feel exactly the same on this issue]
I used to lug my 06 to Sheep Camp on the North side of the Brooks Range for years and Barnes used to have a 250gr bullet in .308 dia. and I had a box of them loaded up and used to always slip them into the 06 when I was packin sheep meat down the hills up there. There was always a health population of grizzlys around that would sometimes follow us for hours and it would get nerve wracking watching behind all the time. And while I never had to shoot one I did have to fire warning shots at them I never did shoot a grizzly with that load but did shoot some good sized Black Bears with it and it worked good on them HOWEVER it did not hit them with the same authority as the Whelen does with a 250.............. there is a difference no question about it and I dont know that I ever actually chronographed the load in the 06 I think from memory it was soposed to be around 2300????? Of course the Whelen with RL15 will do that plus 300fps without getting carried away at all!
Cheers!
Got me peged now Scotty???

 

[SJB358]

Hey thanks for the welcome and I think your comment on the caliber is spot on. After guiding in Alaska for 25 years it finally dawned on me that I really only needed one gun! The Whelen will do it all thats for sure................. and while I still stick to a .270 for deer sized animals; when they start to weigh in at over 600lbs; I now always take the 'Colonel"! I used a .338 WM for years and really found the Whelen is 98% of the old .338 without that long barrel, and extra weight, and fierce recoil.
Thanks Scotty, you allready know me from one of the other boards and I wont tell you the username over there and see how long it takes you to figure it out?????[I am guessing about one more post!]

I got you now buddy. I am glad to see you over here buddy. Now, you gotta post up some of those monster Maine deer you have been putting over on Cabelas up in the hunting posts. I know everyone here will like them alot! Again, I am happy to see you over here. This is a great place and you are in great company here with your Whelen! Trust me, there are quite a few nuts here and even a few 338-06 guys as well... Scotty

 

[DrMike]

Eventually, we see a lot of the finest people in the field of hunting/shooting wandering over to the Nosler Forums. It is indeed a grand group of fellows that hang out here. There are few louts in the lot, but a lot of guys of quality character possessed of an immense knowledge base loitering here.

 

[35 Whelen]

Well probably everyone on here has shot bigger deer than me but here is a buck with good sized bases that we took right here locally [6 5/8 Circumferences at the base] and is a pretty decent 8 ? I will stick some under the hunting section for the boys to look at in the next few days!

 

[SJB358]

There are few louts in the lot, but a lot of guys of quality character possessed of an immense knowledge base loitering here.

Jeeze Mike, I am sitting right here! At least let me go offline before you start knocking me down! Scotty

 

[SJB358]

Well probably everyone on here has shot bigger deer than me but here is a buck with good sized bases that we took right here locally [6 5/8 Circumferences at the base] and is a pretty decent 8 ?

Very nice buck buddy! That is a truly great Northern Buck. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

That is, indeed, a great buck. Anyone would be proud to tag such a fine animal.

Scotty, I had no idea you were still lurking near the keyboard when I began writing. :shock:

 

[35 Whelen]

Thanks guys ............... Dr Mike, I think it is only fair for you to know right up front, that Scotty and I were put on this earth exclusively to promote the merits of owning one gun .............. and we dont care who made the rifle; but it has to be a 35 WHELEN!!!!!!!!!!! LOL............

 

[JD338]

35 Whelen

Welcome to the forum, glad youare here.
I am also a 35 Whelen fan. With the right load, it is all you need for NA and will reach out to 350-400 yds.

What bullet(s) do you use in your 35 Whelen?

JD338

 

[DrMike]

Dr Mike, I think it is only fair for you to know right up front, that Scotty and I were put on this earth exclusively to promote the merits of owning one gun

Hoo, boy, that's not the Scotty I know! Only BK and Fotis seize more rifles than that boy!

 

[onesonek]

There are few louts in the lot, but a lot of guys of quality character possessed of an immense knowledge base loitering here.

Jeeze Mike, I am sitting right here! At least let me go offline before you start knocking me down! Scotty

Man,,,has Mike got you pegged

 

[onesonek]

Very Nice Buck btw !