Winchester M70 accuracy issues

[AKBear]

I am the original owner of a Winchester M70 "Classic Stainless" in 30.06 and it is 12 years old. Never dropped or abused. I always used a bore guide while cleaning. Hoppe’s #9 and Barnes CR-10 to clean bore along with occasional JB Bore paste. I went to great lengths to break in the barrel (shoot/clean/shoot/clean etc...) Problem is I have never been able to get consistent accuracy with this rifle and I've tried just about everything! Factory & hand loads with spreads from 1 7/8" up to five inches. I am pretty meticulous while reloading and use a single stage press one round at a time! I also use a Stoney Point OAL gauge.

A friend bought a new Remington 700 and even during break in it was shooting 3/8" groups or better. I would like to have at least 1 MOA out of this rifle or it’s gotta go! Yesterday, I put on a different scope thinking that could be the issue but it wasn't. My scope is a Leupold Vari X III 2.5x8 in Leupold dual dovetail mounts and matching rings – everything was tight and solid there. The trigger is pretty heavy but I shoot off a solid rest and pay very close attention to trigger sqeeze and believe I am not jerking that.

Disgusted, I took the barrel/action out of the factory stock when I got home from the range - everything looked snug. There was some type of bedding material right below the action which looked like the glue material used in sealing envelopes only more rubbery. I suspect I now need to have the outfit rebedded since I broke the connection on this? Short of selling the rifle does anyone have any recommendations???

I know a new stock, re-bed, re-crown, labor and lots of $$$ can fix many things but then I might as well buy a new rifle I suspect. I would say the rifle has approx. 250-300 rounds through it.

Bumming

 

[rick smith]

If you have a little mechanical ability you can fix everything yourself. Instructions for trigger are on the net, bedding an action is not hard and you could polish your crown if it is necessary. Look at the crown under good light and magnification. Should look smooth with no nicks or gouges.
The rubbery material you found is a very feeble factory attempt at bedding. You could fit it around the recoil lug and reseat the action. Have you checked for uneven barrel tension? Might want to try floating the barrel. What loads are you trying? Bullet/distance from the lands/powder/primer/case/etc.Rick.

 

[JD338]

+1 to what Rick said.
I'm thinking its a bedding issue. Glass bed the action and free float the barrel and I'll bet you will have a "new" rifle.

JD338

 

[AKBear]

Thanks Rick & JD338!

The barrel was not touching the stock – I could slide a cleaning patch between the barrel and stock all the way back to the action without issue.

As far as loads go, I've tried the Partition 180gr & AB in both 180gr and 165gr, Hornady BTSP 180gr and Barnes TSX both 180gr and 165gr. Powders - IMR 4064, H4350, Accurate 3100 and Winchester 760. All beginning with the starting loads listed in the respected bullet manuals. My rifle evidently didn’t read the part about the “Most accurate powder/load tested” in the manuals because that didn’t help in any way!!!

Primers used are Federal GM210M and 210 along with Winchester WLR.

Seating depth was .15 from the rifling for the Noslers and .50 for the Barnes.

Yesterday, I read on another forum, I found that someone seated their bullets on the deeper side depending on how the group was spread out. Usually, one would stay closer to the rifling except for the Barnes. Here is his quote: “Remember that seating depth plays the largest part in accuracy and if you get a wide triangular group, seat the bullet a quarter turn further out and re-shoot and repeat until the group shrinks. Like wise, if you get the more common 2 shots together and the third going wider, seat deeper a quarter turn and re-shoot and repeat until that stray comes into the group.”

I'll need to read up on the bedding process.

Ray
NRA Member

 

[JD338]

AKBear

Back in my 30-06 days, 57.o grs IMR4350 was my go to powder for the 180 gr ers. If I were to start loading again for 30-06, I would take a hard look at RL22.

You might want to try these powders before you start with the bedding, ya just might find the magic load.

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

Or H4350. This is the powder in the 4350 series series I use exclusively due to temp differences.

 

[rick smith]

My standard 30/06 load is 58.5-58.8grs IMR-4350 behind a 165gr bullet. Nosler or Lapua brass, WLR or Fed210M. Bulet is seated from 10-15 thou. off the lands.Rick.

 

[Ol` Joe]

Have you tried various bullet weights and styles? I have a 25-06 that flat out hates 120 gr bullets of any type. Some I`ve tried made me wonder how I got them all on the same piece of paper. Put a 100 gr bullet over any suitable powder and the thing shoots MOA all day long. Go figure................BTW it`s M70

 

[jtoews80]

Well, I don't have a lot to say given the well quailified company. I would second what JD said and try some IMR 4350, also if that isn't great try some IMR 4831, these are slower powders that may give a little better use of the case volume and more consistent ignition as opposed to a less dense load. 760 is slow too, but some guns love certain powders. If you think it could be the trigger, readjust your FL die to just touch the shoulder(probably already do) or neck size to minimize lock time and movement after the trigger breaks. Of course, here is the perfect excuse to buy a box of Nosler custom brass to try too :lol: or weigh each case and seperate them into 0.5 grn lots to uniform case volumes if you don' already. I've had some range over 4 or 5 grains with one 10 grns lighter in one particularly bad box. Probably not much help I bet, mostly stuff you know I think. Hope you get it figured out, best of luck.

CC

 

[Bruce Mc]

Some Models 70s have that third screw on the bottom metal that can create some problems with bedding. I have a 70 Classic LT in 7mm Rem Mag that I re-bedded and installed a Williams one piece bottom metal that uses two screws. Right before season opened I did a final sight in and shot a one hole group with 160 ABs.

If yours doesn't have the third screw on the bottom metal I'd go with just rebedding the rifle. That Winchester stuff is a pitiful excuse for bedding.

 

[AKBear]

Thanks for all the input and information gents – greatly appreciate the guidance!!! After a couple days of thought, I’ve come down to several possibilities.

First, send it back to Winchester and have them take a look at the rifle and see if they can find anything wrong.

Option two, replace the current stock with an H-S Precision or a Hogue Over Molded (full length bed block) one. This would allow for hopefully a simple “drop-in” fit of the action/barrel and not require a re-bedding job? If my problem is the current bedding, this should solve the problem I would think. For the record, this rifle has three screws on the bottom - one that goes through a hole in front of the floorplate (actually holds this piece on), through the stock and then into the action. The other two screws go through the trigger guard and into the action.

Option three, send it off to Williams Gun Sight Company back in Michigan and let them look the whole thing over. If I do that, I’d keep the current stock I have now - this option would probably still cost me some $$$ however. Williams IMO does good work

Lastly, I’ve been looking on the Remington web site at the 700 SPS and 700 XCR, both in stainless - buy a new one and the problem is solved. I’ll keep you all posted!

 

[6ppcar]

I didn't know Winchester build any good Rifles after 1963 :lol: , I've shot an owned several of those Classic Stainless model 70's and never could get them to shoot. I re bedded them , re cut crowns and tried a lot of loads and just could not get them to shoot. I think the barrels were junk.
If i were you i would or trade for something else. The only other option would be to Re barrel.
Now, if this gun were a Pre 64 Model 70 Winchester, O how sweet it is.

 

[DrMike]

I have five Winchester Model 70 rifles, three of which are stainless. Each shoots sub MOA. My 7 mm WSM (stainless) consistently shoots 160 gr AB into 0.25". My 300 WSM shoots 180 grain TSX and Nosler PT into 0.5". My 325 WSM (stainless) shoots 200 grain Partitions into 0.5". My 7 mm RM (stainless) shoots 175 grain TBBC into 0.75" and 160 grain TSX into 0.5". I have only receive my 270 WSM, so load development is just beginning. I routinely check crown and bedding, and adjust the trigger on every new rifle added. I also insure that I use good glass that is properly mounted. Some rifles have required more attention than others, but all have been made to shoot well, even the Model 94s and the BLR and the Model Seven that sit in my gun safe. I wouldn't "dis" the Winchester too harshly.

 

[Northwoods Hunter]

You are one lucky Winchester owner if you have some made from 1995 on that are shooters Doc! My experience with three different models during that time frame was awful... The Featherweight 70 in 7mm-08 was sent back twice and finally glass bedded to get it to 1 1/2 groups.
Same with the Model 70 Sporter 7 STW... The Classic SS in 300 WSM went back for throat problems and did eventually shoot MOA after some load work.

I had a couple Remingtons that weren't peaches during this time also...a few of my good friends here (that are very knowledgeable riflemen) started going to Tikka and Sako in frustration.

I am happy to say the recent rifles I have acquired, three Rem 700 CDLs , a 700 LV , two Ruger 77 MK IIs and a .243 Tikka T-3 SS have all shot MOA or much better.

I am hoping the new Winchester 70s that are awaiting release soon will again be like the 70s and 94s I learned to love in the "old days". :roll:

 

[JD338]

I've only owned one 70, it was a XTR in 243 Win and it was a shooter.
I'm a m700 guy, they always shoot under 1 moa for me with the right loads.

JD338

 

[Bruce Mc]

I have an XTR purchased new in 1978 in 30-06. It shoots 1/2" groups with most any bullets. The XTR has never had any work done on it at all. It is stock from the box so to speak. I have a Classic LT in 7mm Rem Mag I bought in 2003. The last group I shot with it was .114" three shots with 160 accubonds. It consistently shoots less than 1/2". The Classic Lt has been "re" glass bedded and free floated. I also added the one piece steel Williams bottom metal to do away with the middle screw. I had a Featherweight in .270 win (push feed model US Repeating Arms) that wouldn't shoot until it was re glass beeded and a uniform pressure point added. So go figure. I think guns is like cars, if there was a way to check the serial number to determine if it was made on a Friday afternoon or a Monday morning, it might be a good thing to do.

 

[DrMike]

Northwoods Hunter,

I did not mention my .280 Rem which shoots 140 grain BT and 139 grain Hdy IL into .25 inches. This is the first year in some time that I did not carry this rifle during deer season. Instead, I worked with my 7 mm WSM. This is the second .280 Rem in a Winchester Featherweight that I have owned, and each was a shooter. I have only had one Winchester that did not shoot good groups, and that was a 7 X 57 that I simply could not get to shoot. I traded it for a CZ in .30-06, which I later traded for the .325 WSM that I now have.

I like Winchesters, but we live in a remarkable period when we have a plethora of rifles that are better built than anything available a few years ago. I have the opportunity to shoot a variety of rifles as I do load development for a custom rifle maker and gunsmith. I can tell you that I see a large number of excellent examples of the gunsmithing trade today. There are few brands of rifles on the market today that cannot be made to shoot well.

Consequently, the Winchesters that were produced just before the New Haven facility closed were quite rough. My 325 WSM has one of the roughest barrels I ever witnessed, and yet it delivers excellent groups. On the other hand, the 7 mm WSM that I picked up after the closing of the plant was announced, is one of the smoothest barrels on any rifle I have shot. Fit and finish on the rifles produced in those final years was less than stellar. However, they do shoot well.