Wow - Lot's of Hype for the 6.5s

[HAWKEYESATX]

You don't need all the bang, or recoil to beat a 6.5 Creed with a 7mm Rem Mag, all you need is a .280 Remington loaded with a sleek, high ballistic coefficient 160 gr bullet moving at 2900 fps range. The .280 Rem will outclass the .30-06, and .300 Win Mag at over 500 yds distance. The .280 starts to beat the old .30-06 at 300 yds.
The 160 gr, in a .280 outclasses the 6.5 Creed in energy, and having longer legs than the 6.5 Creed even out to 1200-1300 yds.

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[Teknys]

What I was refering to by "Hype" is the Creed being compared to the 30 cals for Elk. Been hunting elk out west here since '82. We've taken one 6pt bull and a few cows with the 260. All less than 100yds. Worked great. I will take a cow when carrying a tag while deer hunting with what ever I'm using that year. Now when hunting bulls I carry a 300WSM. BIG difference between a relaxed cow and a bull elk.
Now I've always said elk are not wearing armor but they can sure take a hit. If I had a cow tag this year and one presented a shot while deer hunting. I have no issue with taking the Creed to task and filling the tag.

 

[Songdog]

I’ve seen elk vs. .260 a few times too... and the .260 has won decisively on every occasion. Good bullets combined with easily shootable cartridges... makes for very capable killers. The .270 has been slaying elk for a long time... and the Creed is right in that same class, particularly when loaded with excellent bullets like the TTSX/LRX, 130 AccuBond, or 125 Partition. I’m fairly certain that no big game animal on the planet could tell the difference between a 127 LRX at 2900+ (Creed)... and a 130 TTSX at 3000+ (.270 Win). Given the 6.5’s better BC, it’s a complete wash by 150 yards or so.

Seems to me... that there’s an awful lot of Scandinavian moose that get killed every year with 6.5s.... for well in excess of 100 years. Are they smaller than elk?

I get it.... .30’s make some folks all comfortable... so keep using them. But... that doesn’t mean there’s nothing substantiating the “hype” behind the Creed.

 

[Teknys]

Hey - Songdog, I agree 99% of your last post about the "right" bullet getting the job done. Most of the elk I've taken have been with a .277 140AB / 150PT. Very close to a 6.5 140xx, so we are on the same page.
In Idaho I could be in the timber / brush after elk. I have not pulled the trigger because of the angle - quartering towards me - when I had 260 w/130gn. I would have pulled the trigger with my 300WSM 200gn. That shoulder is pretty tough from that angle. Thats where I'm at with using 30 cals on bulls. Any other angle and I honest can not say any of our 264 cal elk went down any better or worse then other cals.
I'm not using the word "Hype" and "fact" as the same. It's the misconception of the cartridge 6.5 Creed is the one that is better then all others. Fact - throw a 6.5 - 140gn at 2700fps from any 6.5 and the results are the same. Hype - the Creed is above everything else (no matter the subject).

 

[SJB358]

Imagine the amount of elk a fella would have to take in all the varying scenarios to even begin to make a guess at which was better :mrgreen:

I’d be down for the experiment though.

The 127 LRX at 2950 is gotta be a great bullet in the Creed with elk being on the menu. I’d probably be just as happy with the 140 AB or Partition as well at 2750-2800. Not that SD counts by itself but that bullet is in the same league as a 338 250 grain bullet and no one that I know of ever saw a lack of anything from a 338 Win shooting them about the same speed. Granted you’ll get some more damage from the 338 but penetration should be about the same.

 

[Songdog]

I don’t think I’d shoot a bull quartering toward me with a 130 AccuBond either... out of a 6.5... or a .270. To be honest though, I also don’t like that shot with most larger guns either. I saw a small mile deer buck stop a .338/225 AccuBond on a similar shot... that bullet barely made it through both lungs.... and the .338 Win/225AB combo is excellent elk medicine, in theory.

I’m one of those guys who’s hunted elk enough to respect them a lot. I appreciate their toughness, their tenacity, and their shear size/strength. I understand that there are shots I’d take on a deer, that I won’t take on an elk... regardless of the cartridge in hand. I think it’s a lot easier to pick a good elk cartridge/bullet... if you’re willing to be a little judicious about the shots you’re willing to take.

 

[Europe]

teknys--you are correct

just as a very small example

OMG the 300 and 375 H & H ---are unbelievable

OMG the weatherbys rifle --especially the 257, 270, 300, and 340---are unbelievable

OMG the wsm's ----are unbelievable

then we get those that were unbelievable for awhile, went away and are now OMG the 35 Whelen --you guessed it-- are unbelievable

I dont have a creed but I have shot a ton of animals with--OMG--a 6.5 x 55 and what amazes me is everytime I did my part correctly, bingo, meat in the freezer --but OMG, can you imagine how much deader they would have been if I had used a creed (is deader even a word )

 

[Guy Miner]

I think that more and more of our current shooters are doing a lot of target shooting, and trying for excellent precision.

Hunter numbers, sadly, are declining.

Maybe that's a reason why the Creedmoor is doing so well? It was developed as a target cartridge, by a great target shooter. It's certainly popular, and for many of the same reasons that the other mid-power 6.5's probably should have been more popular here in the USA than they were.

Guy

 

[270elk]

I think Hornady projected the decline in hunter numbers and made a pivot to target shooting. While many compare the 6.5CM to the 6.5 Swed as a hunting round for large big game (elk and moose), most of the moose shot in the Scandinavian countries are shot on drive or the use of dogs. These are not long-range shots.
My problem is not the CM but the projection of a long-range target cartridge to shooting elk with it at long-range. Maybe my issue is long-range shooting at long-range! I shoot a lot but at altitude with adrenaline pumping I am not good enough to make the shots. Therefore, my limit is 400 yards and my 270, 30-06, or 300WM work just fine within these limitation.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

I'm not saying that the 6.5 CM isn't an excellent hunting round, either. I love the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser round. Probably my all time favorite hunting/target round.
I know that hunting elk with it is going to be about 250-300 yds max. If I use a sleek projectile, with an excellent sectional density, out to 250-300 yds, I have a really good chance of having elk meat in the freezer. I don't expect an elk to be DRT after shooting it with the 6.5 Swede. That goes the same with the 6.5 CM. Stretching it past that yardage, and the chances of having to track such a magnificent animal for miles increases tremendously. Even shooting an elk at 500 + yds, with a perfect broadside shot is dicey. I'm not questioning marksmanship, just that at those distances, 6.5 bullets don't tend to open much. They don't dump energy into an animal, let's say, like a .280, .30-06, or a .300 Mag does.
Using a 140 gr and up bullet, at those velocities, 400 + yds, they will leave just a pencil sized hole going in, and a pencil sized hole going out. With that being said, I hope a person's tracking skills are top notch, because you'll need them, and the tissue damage is going to be minimal, and the blood trail will be very little.
That's why people use bigger, faster, harder hitting cartridges than the 6.5's.
As Dirty Harry once said," A man's gotta know his limitations!"

Note: Edited to enclose a ballistics chart of the 6.5 CM and the ft.-lbs of energy out to 400 yds. Experts agree that the ft.-lbs to cleanly take an elk is minimal at 1500 lbs.

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[TackDriver284]

The .280 Rem will outclass the .30-06, and .300 Win Mag at over 500 yds distance.

Sorry for being off topic. :mrgreen:
Not to burst your bubble, I was just confused,,,After reading your above post about hard hitting cartridges at long range,,,on this post you simplified that a .280 outclasses the 300 Magnum? How is that possible?
280 Rem has about 2800 to 3000 ft lbs and the .300 Mag has 4000 ft lbs.

 

[Songdog]

I'm not saying that the 6.5 CM isn't an excellent hunting round, either. I love the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser round. Probably my all time favorite hunting/target round.
I know that hunting elk with it is going to be about 250-300 yds max. If I use a sleek projectile, with an excellent sectional density, out to 250-300 yds, I have a really good chance of having elk meat in the freezer. I don't expect an elk to be DRT after shooting it with the 6.5 Swede. That goes the same with the 6.5 CM. Stretching it past that yardage, and the chances of having to track such a magnificent animal for miles increases tremendously. Even shooting an elk at 500 + yds, with a perfect broadside shot is dicey. I'm not questioning marksmanship, just that at those distances, 6.5 bullets don't tend to open much. They don't dump energy into an animal, let's say, like a .280, .30-06, or a .300 Mag does.
Using a 140 gr and up bullet, at those velocities, 400 + yds, they will leave just a pencil sized hole going in, and a pencil sized hole going out. With that being said, I hope a person's tracking skills are top notch, because you'll need them, and the tissue damage is going to be minimal, and the blood trail will be very little.

Dang..... that big cow elk my son pole-axed with a .260 at 505 yards last fall just jumped outta the freezer, reassembled herself, and ran off after reading that post.... I better go catch her! That 127 LRX went through at least 3 feet of elk clockwork, and exited.... she went down so fast she bounced. Good thing she didn’t know it was a little ole 6.5 bullet.... she’d have ran for miles.

FPE doesn’t kill critters..... neither do ballistic charts. Bullet holes through vital organs kill stuff...

Inside your self imposed limit of 250-300 yards.... you’d never see the difference between a Creed and a .270.... or a 7/08... or any other cornucopia of cartridges.

 

[SJB358]

I'm not saying that the 6.5 CM isn't an excellent hunting round, either. I love the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser round. Probably my all time favorite hunting/target round.
I know that hunting elk with it is going to be about 250-300 yds max. If I use a sleek projectile, with an excellent sectional density, out to 250-300 yds, I have a really good chance of having elk meat in the freezer. I don't expect an elk to be DRT after shooting it with the 6.5 Swede. That goes the same with the 6.5 CM. Stretching it past that yardage, and the chances of having to track such a magnificent animal for miles increases tremendously. Even shooting an elk at 500 + yds, with a perfect broadside shot is dicey. I'm not questioning marksmanship, just that at those distances, 6.5 bullets don't tend to open much. They don't dump energy into an animal, let's say, like a .280, .30-06, or a .300 Mag does.
Using a 140 gr and up bullet, at those velocities, 400 + yds, they will leave just a pencil sized hole going in, and a pencil sized hole going out. With that being said, I hope a person's tracking skills are top notch, because you'll need them, and the tissue damage is going to be minimal, and the blood trail will be very little.

Dang..... that big cow elk my son pole-axed with a .260 at 505 yards last fall just jumped outta the freezer, reassembled herself, and ran off after reading that post.... I better go catch her! That 127 LRX went through at least 3 feet of elk clockwork, and exited.... she went down so fast she bounced. Good thing she didn’t know it was a little ole 6.5 bullet.... she’d have ran for miles.

FPE doesn’t kill critters..... neither do ballistic charts. Bullet holes through vital organs kill stuff...

Inside your self imposed limit of 250-300 yards.... you’d never see the difference between a Creed and a .270.... or a 7/08... or any other cornucopia of cartridges.

SD, off the topic a bit, but did your boy hit any bones on that cow? That’s pretty impressive stuff though, elk dropping on the spot is a great thing. I think the LRXs are the cats behind in the smaller bores on heavier game though. No worries about the bullet getting far enough through them any longer.


Also agree, good bullets at adequate speed leave dead critters in their wake. If FPE was the key to it all we’d never kill much of anything with our old 45-70’s and BP loads. Not much paper energy but I wouldn’t wanna try and catch one with my mitts either.

 

[Songdog]

No Scotty.... no big bones were encountered, as the shot was quartering away. Bullet entered at the last rib, blew-up the liver, got both lungs, exploded the heart, and exited at the neck shoulder junction on the off-side. It was pretty impressive actually. Impact velocity would have been about 2300fps... making the “energy” just barely under that 1500 fpe Mendoza Line.

So... according to the “experts”.... that load is solid for elk at 500 yards.

I’ve seen the 127 LRX clobber deer, elk, antelope, and coyotes.... haven’t seen a critter take a single step after impact. They’re damn good game bullets.

 

[SJB358]

No Scotty.... no big bones were encountered, as the shot was quartering away. Bullet entered at the last rib, blew-up the liver, got both lungs, exploded the heart, and exited at the neck shoulder junction on the off-side. It was pretty impressive actually. Impact velocity would have been about 2300fps... making the “energy” just barely under that 1500 fpe Mendoza Line.

So... according to the “experts”.... that load is solid for elk at 500 yards.

I’ve seen the 127 LRX clobber deer, elk, antelope, and coyotes.... haven’t seen a critter take a single step after impact. They’re damn good game bullets.

Thanks SD, that’s a good picture of performance. I’m half tempted to carry my 6.5 CM for the cow hunt but I’m dialed with 147’s and as much as I love them on deer I don’t trust them for the same shot you just described your boy took. I’m probably too weary about it but my 7 Mashburn is dialed as well and I know it’ll do that as well. But solid props to the point, they have the juice to do it, with great Bullets and good shooters.

I need to work my 127 load a touch but it wasn’t too bad and ran 2950’ish. About like a 270 and I know they work just fine.

Any tags for the lads and yourself for this fall? Looking forward to seeing more action from your Tikkas.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

The .280 Rem will outclass the .30-06, and .300 Win Mag at over 500 yds distance.

Sorry for being off topic. :mrgreen:
Not to burst your bubble, I was just confused,,,After reading your above post about hard hitting cartridges at long range,,,on this post you simplified that a .280 outclasses the 300 Magnum? How is that possible?
280 Rem has about 2800 to 3000 ft lbs and the .300 Mag has 4000 ft lbs.

You're talking about muzzle energy. Not distances like 500 yds and up where the 7mm bullet has a distinct advantage in BC, and SD, not to mention bullet drop.

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[HAWKEYESATX]

Songdog,

Obviously, you're an above average hunter. I'm talking about the average hunter, or below, that thinks, because they have the end to end all other long range cartridges in the 6.5 CM, that because it can ring steel plates out to 1000 yds, means it's going to be an effective hunting cartridge at those distances. It isn't. The uneducated nimrod, which I have seen, and run into when I'm hunting, will undoubtedly take longer shots at game animals than they should, with just regular bullets. And will be using factory ammo, which isn't up to specs to begin with in the muzzle velocity arena.
It sounds like your an avid reloader, and know where your bullet velocities are.
In my opinion, if you get a big bull elk, that has antlers long enough to scratch his ass when he lifts his head is out there at 500 yds +, and you have a 6.5 CM, you mean to tell me you're going to shoot it, and believe the 6.5 CM is going to drop it in one shot, DRT?
In my opinion, the 6.5x55, or the ballistic equivalent 6.5 CM, are good long range target rounds, just not good long range hunting rounds.
In the years past, I've seen green horn hunters shoot bull cattle, and a Mule, thinking they were elk. If you say that that can't happen, it did.

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[Songdog]

I would absolutely shoot the biggest bull elk on the planet, at 500 yards, with the above mentioned load.... given the shot, and recovery conditions were acceptable.... just like I would with a 7 Mag, or a .300 Mag, or something of the larger ilk.

No... I would absolutely not expect the elk to be DRT... regardless of shot distance... or cartridge being used... of bullet being flung. In my experience, it’s pretty rare to see an elk anchored at the shot.

 

[SJB358]

No... I would absolutely not expect the elk to be DRT... regardless of shot distance... or cartridge being used... of bullet being flung. In my experience, it’s pretty rare to see an elk anchored at the shot.

That's a danged fact right there. Recovery with the "Bigger Gun's" isn't always any better either. I am the worst for using bigger rifles than I probably need to, but after seeing them hit with a bunch between the 270 on up to the 35 Whelen and 338 Win, shot's in vitals with bullets that open enough to wreck internals that kill elk are what counts. All the headstamps and other nonsense is pretty trivial honestly, when in reality, it is the bullet that kills, if it is above the expansion threshold to open up, and has the mass to penetrate, all of the numbers don't mean a ton.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

SJB358,

That's what I was getting at, in a round about way, unfortunately.
I've used a .300 Win Mag, and shot an elk within 400 yds with it, and it didn't drop it immediately. I wasn't expecting it to either.
The one shot DRT is not common to say the least, no matter what distance, and which calibers you're using.
As you and Songdog state, bullet placement is the key, no matter the cartridge or power.
Don't get me wrong, I love, love, love the 6.5 cartridges. I've used the 6.5x55 a lot, even well before they became "popular".
I, personally, wouldn't shoot at an elk more than 350 yds, with a 6.5x55.
But that's me. 350 yds is plenty long enough, and I like to get closer to my prey, so I know I can harvest it quickly.
I was with friends one day up in the Wyoming mountains, and we had milk jugs set up with water, and placed them incrementally, from 100 yds to 500 yds.
One friend had his .30-06, and .280, and had the latest lead sled, with the newest scopes with BDC's, and he couldn't hit a single jug. When it came to my turn, I was shooting an old, even at that time, Model 96 Swedish Mauser, with open sights.
I hit every single jug that that guy couldn't hit. Plus, I was just sitting, and aimed carefully.
I do admit, the 6.5x55 is a flat shooting round, even out to 500 yds. I was shooting 140 gr soft point PMC 6.5x55 ammo.
The closer milk jugs, blew up. But the farther ones stayed there, and drained after I hit them.
I embarrassed him, and wasn't meaning to. I was just having fun, with an old, old set up, my trusty 6.5x55 M96 Swedish Mauser, open iron sights.

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