270 Win 140 AB Assistance needed

[Dr. Vette]

I picked up a project this week that I worked on 5 (!) years ago. I didn't realize it had been that long.

I have a 270 Win Wby Vanguard that I'm trying to get to shoot the 140 AccuBond. I've only ever gotten fair results, never good or great. Perhaps I just need to send it to Fotis to work on. :grin:

Here are the specs:

270 Win, 24 inch barrel
140 AccuBond
FC cases (I think Frontier, aka Hornady), previously shot in this rifle, annealed and sized. Primer pockets uniformed and flash holes reamed.
69.02gr water capacity
CCI LR 200 primers (previously used Red 210M with similar results)
3.320 COAL
H4841SC powder
LabRadar chronograph

Speeds:
58.5: 2879, 2886, 2881
59.0: xxxx, 2910, 2910
59.5: 2939, 2964, 2960
60.0: 2985, 2991, 3007

Targets are attached below, labeled by powder load.
Groups range from roughly 1.7 inches to 3 inches. They're not drastically different from what I did 5 years ago, though the speeds seem slightly slower this time. The only difference is the primer and the chronograph. Oh, and the COAL today was the recommended length Nosler prints. I tried longer COALs previously with no better results.

Any thoughts as to what direction to take this next?
Does QL predict anything different than what I've shown?

H4831 is supposed to be "the" powder for the 270 Win, but I haven't seen it yet. Thanks for any suggestions you may have.

 

[69gto]

Don't know if this will help but I was using RL-22 with win. brass, F-215 primers, OAL 3.340. This was in a WBY. ultra light weight 24in. barrel. I started at 56g and worked my way up to 60g, 3080 fps. It shot bug holes with that pencil thin barrel. I switched from 4831 to RL 22 30 years ago in the 270s, it fits a lot better.

 

[Anonymous]

Have you shot a different load/bullet weight with better results?

Occasionally you run into a rifle that just hates a particular weight.

 

[Dr. Vette]

I've tried some factory ammo in this rifle and it can shoot very well.

This is the first handload project I ever tried - I just picked it back up in one last attempt to get it to work.
I've done other loads since this one that work very well, so I don't think its operator error.

 

[mjcmichigan]

Just checking.. I’ve had groups like that when I have a loose screw. 2x this year on my savage 3006.... i was able to put a trun on the front screw. Was enough that sometimes the forearm would touch the barrel.


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[SJB358]

I've tried some factory ammo in this rifle and it can shoot very well.

This is the first handload project I ever tried - I just picked it back up in one last attempt to get it to work.
I've done other loads since this one that work very well, so I don't think its operator error.

Just my honest opinion, your 60 grain charge looks pretty good to me. I would seat deeper by .010" at an interval and I'd bet it'll come together. Hodgeman brought up a point that sometimes a rifle just doesn't like a bullet, but the 140 AB has always been accurate in about any 270 I have used it in.

I think you might find magic if you keep shortening it. They don't mind a good jump into the rifling and that 60 grain charge looks very promising if it were my rifle.

 

[jimbires]

I've also found accubonds like to jump . do you know what your jump is ? is 60.0 grains a max charge ? the groups look to be getting better as you add powder .

I don't think brass is your problem right now . if you would have some other brass I'd say give it a try too . I have some of the old frontier brass , it's not good .neck thickness was out .003 - .005 on some of that brass . if you have a ball mic you could measure it .

 

[EOD Diver]

You never really know what a rifle will like powder wise. I had an ol’pre-64 270 that liked IMR7828 under a 140 AB, but I couldn’t get that powder to shoot in my daughter’s 270. I began to suspect the rifle was simply inaccurate until I tried RL22 under that same bullet and the groups shrunk into around a half inch. I know that 4831 is the quintessential 270 powder, but 7828, RL 22, 23, and 26 and even Magpro are good candidates as well. Good luck!
V/R,
Joe

 

[Dr. Vette]

but 7828, RL 22, 23, and 26 and even Magpro are good candidates as well. Good luck!
V/R,
Joe

I've thought of 7828 and RL-22.

Everything I've read seems to indicate the RL-26 is better for a 150gr bullet, so I've hesitated to try it. However, it's such a great powder...

 

[Dr. Vette]

I've also found accubonds like to jump . do you know what your jump is ? is 60.0 grains a max charge ? the groups look to be getting better as you add powder .

Believe it or not, I had these loaded long 5y ago when I did it, and now they're shortened way down to the 3.320. There is not a vast difference between results. 60 seemed to be the best back then, and is now, but when I've tried 60 a second time, or try different OALs, there is no pattern or consistency.

No overpressure signs, and the speed now is slightly less than 5y ago. I have toyed with the idea of trying 60.5, but I'm at the edge of what will fit before it starts to compress.

 

[jimbires]

if you're not seeing pressure signs , I'd give more powder a try . I wouldn't worry about lightly compressing powder . use a drop tube funnel , it helps settle the powder in the case . I'd try more powder first , 60.5 & 61 . then I'd do like Scotty advised , shorten seating depth . if you're already at max powder charge 60.0 grains , work seating depth .


what I'm seeing ; the top two targets have the shots kind of strung along , no resemblance of a group . target three has a wide triangle kind of evenly spaced . target 4 has two together , and one out . you have only changed powder charge between these targets .

 

[hunter24605]

I my 280, 7-08, and 270 WSM, .100" jump is where I found the best accuracy.

 

[truck driver]

I had a similar problem with my 338Win until I checked the bedding and eventually changed the stock. If it is a S1 in the factory poly stock it's time to up grade the stock , if you don't loctite the action screws in the poly stocks they will work loose. I would put it in a B&C Medalist with aluminum bedding block and watch the groups shrink.
I take it you know your OAL off the lands and Abs like everyone has said like jump some where .100" off the lands. JMO

 

[Dr. Vette]

All my Vanguards wear B&C stocks and have been bedded & free floated. The plastic stocks get sold off.

I have the jump measurements - somewhere - and currently they're jumping quite a bit. COAL was shortened by at least 0.1 this week alone going from previous to the 3.320

 

[IdahoCTD]

I've had really good luck in the past with 55grs of 4350 with a 130. I would bet around 53grs would work well with a 140 too. Some guns just don't like some powders and that would be the first thing I would change. Anything from 4350 to R-26 should work for you. BTW FC typically means Federal Cartridge on brass headstamps.

Cartridge : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .277, 140, Nosler AccuBond 54765
Useable Case Capaci: 59.393 grain H2O = 3.856 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 64900 psi, or 447 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 106 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

7 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 *C 105.7 62.2 4.03 3260 100.0 64900 11319 1.145 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma MRP *C 106.0 60.6 3.92 3216 99.9 63749 11454 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 *C 103.0 60.1 3.89 3214 100.0 64900 11105 1.136 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 60 *T 96.7 55.6 3.60 3193 100.0 64900 10193 1.141 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 SSC 106.0 59.6 3.86 3180 98.3 63586 11289 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 95.7 55.0 3.56 3168 100.0 64900 10127 1.149 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 95.7 55.0 3.56 3168 100.0 64900 10127 1.149 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 100.8 53.8 3.48 3165 100.0 64900 10117 1.142 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N560 *C 106.0 59.3 3.84 3149 97.5 60142 11561 1.182 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 104.4 56.9 3.68 3148 99.2 64900 10699 1.142 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant Reloder-19 *C 105.1 57.5 3.73 3147 99.2 64900 10770 1.150 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 518 101.3 57.3 3.71 3146 100.0 64900 10505 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ReloadSwiss RS 62 99.1 56.9 3.69 3144 100.0 64900 10199 1.167 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
PB Clermont PCL 511 97.3 56.7 3.68 3144 100.0 64900 10429 1.156 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Hunter 100.5 56.8 3.68 3142 100.0 64900 10414 1.156 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H414 95.0 55.0 3.56 3140 99.9 64900 10454 1.158 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester 760 95.0 55.0 3.56 3140 99.9 64900 10454 1.158 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 105.8 57.9 3.75 3139 99.2 64900 10689 1.151 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
ADI AR 2213 106.0 58.7 3.80 3135 97.9 61671 11119 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 102.4 55.8 3.61 3130 100.0 64900 9653 1.164 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate MAGPRO 106.0 61.7 4.00 3126 96.0 59423 11559 1.194 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C 97.2 54.4 3.53 3120 100.0 64900 10099 1.167 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Raufoss RA4 102.8 56.3 3.65 3120 99.1 64900 10483 1.152 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 204 *C 99.6 56.3 3.65 3120 99.1 64900 10483 1.152 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 102.8 56.3 3.65 3120 99.1 64900 10483 1.152 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 106.0 58.7 3.80 3119 98.8 59598 11140 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 *C 106.0 58.7 3.80 3119 98.8 59598 11140 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 *C 106.0 58.7 3.80 3119 98.8 59598 11140 1.193 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP *C 100.1 54.2 3.51 3119 100.0 64900 9962 1.163 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 100.1 54.2 3.51 3119 100.0 64900 9959 1.163 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4350 99.2 54.3 3.52 3114 100.0 64900 9911 1.179 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T 106.0 58.7 3.80 3113 97.7 64770 10580 1.149 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S385 105.2 58.2 3.77 3107 99.7 64900 10268 1.170 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Magnum 106.0 63.2 4.10 3105 99.3 60440 10659 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 105.0 55.0 3.57 3099 100.0 64900 9734 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP4 NT *C ~approximation 100.4 55.8 3.62 3095 99.8 64900 10093 1.164 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Winchester Supreme 780 103.3 59.6 3.86 3092 99.1 64900 10192 1.156 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R904 103.6 55.9 3.62 3086 98.4 64900 10215 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Lovex S070 99.7 54.0 3.50 3080 99.9 64900 9927 1.173 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H380 92.5 51.7 3.35 3074 100.0 64900 9626 1.172 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 102.7 54.4 3.53 3072 100.0 64900 9160 1.164 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP3 92.8 51.3 3.33 3059 100.0 64900 9263 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Norma 203 old 92.8 51.3 3.33 3059 100.0 64900 9263 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R907 97.4 52.3 3.39 3058 99.6 64900 9780 1.168 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Bofors RP7 97.4 52.3 3.39 3058 99.6 64900 9780 1.168 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 4007 SSC 94.3 52.4 3.39 3057 99.6 64900 9773 1.168 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Lovex S065 98.6 52.8 3.42 3054 100.0 64900 9544 1.173 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Rottweil R903 94.9 51.4 3.33 3054 100.0 64900 9179 1.183 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S355 95.1 50.9 3.30 3051 100.0 64900 9207 1.177 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Somchem S361 102.4 59.7 3.87 3050 97.7 64900 9995 1.167 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
SNPE Vectan SP 12 106.0 61.9 4.01 3048 97.3 54566 11145 1.228
Rottweil R905 106.0 57.6 3.73 3044 96.9 57454 10703 1.215 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 106.0 61.9 4.01 3042 97.2 54251 11146 1.231
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T 106.0 56.5 3.66 3041 97.5 62373 10169 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 106.0 57.4 3.72 3032 98.0 54316 10931 1.244
Bofors RP15 106.0 57.4 3.72 3032 98.0 54316 10931 1.244
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T 106.0 56.8 3.68 3022 100.0 54301 10008 1.246
Accurate 3100 106.0 58.0 3.76 3021 99.9 59556 9871 1.228 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 92.3 49.5 3.20 3010 100.0 64900 8689 1.205 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
IMR 7828 106.0 56.4 3.65 2992 96.2 52161 10792 1.254
ADI AP 2214 106.0 60.2 3.90 2988 96.5 53707 10643 1.237
Hodgdon H4831 *T 106.0 56.4 3.65 2986 96.3 56319 10233 1.223 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT *C ~approximation 106.0 59.2 3.83 2981 94.3 54881 10558 1.231
Alliant Reloder-25 *C 106.0 57.7 3.74 2971 99.6 48792 10694 1.293
Vihtavuori N565 *C 106.0 59.6 3.86 2966 95.7 50385 10995 1.299
Vihtavuori N165 *C 106.0 57.4 3.72 2956 98.5 55780 9753 1.240 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 *C 106.0 55.6 3.61 2941 97.0 56446 9688 1.232 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP30 106.0 58.0 3.76 2873 94.8 44172 10819 1.363
Norma MRP 2 *C 106.0 58.0 3.76 2873 94.8 44172 10819 1.363
Lovex S071 106.0 54.9 3.56 2851 98.9 48776 9574 1.344
Vihtavuori N570 *C 106.0 61.2 3.97 2848 87.5 42803 11275 1.377
IMR 7977 Enduron *C*T 106.0 57.4 3.72 2832 87.9 54416 9209 1.258
Hodgdon H1000 *T 106.0 57.4 3.72 2811 93.7 44727 10077 1.347
ADI AR 2217 106.0 57.4 3.72 2811 93.7 44727 10077 1.347
Alliant Reloder-33 *C 106.0 63.0 4.08 2759 86.1 39883 10859 1.427
ADI AR 2225 106.0 58.4 3.78 2753 95.5 38919 10582 1.437
Hodgdon Retumbo 106.0 58.4 3.78 2753 95.5 38919 10582 1.437
ReloadSwiss RS 80 *C 106.0 63.0 4.08 2703 85.4 37974 10651 1.460
Lovex D100 106.0 62.5 4.05 2701 82.2 44448 9209 1.374
ADI AR 2218 106.0 61.8 4.01 2672 81.5 38783 10506 1.445
Vihtavuori 24N41 *C 106.0 61.8 4.01 2665 78.6 41218 9468 1.413
Vihtavuori N170 *C 106.0 57.4 3.72 2656 85.3 40567 9276 1.447
Norma 217 *C 106.0 57.2 3.70 2646 92.1 33697 10412 1.533
Hodgdon H870 106.0 59.9 3.88 2610 84.7 34227 10127 1.534
Hodgdon 50BMG 106.0 58.9 3.82 2476 70.0 33621 8639 1.555
Hodgdon US 869 106.0 61.8 4.01 2472 73.9 33326 8702 1.563
Somchem 12.7-0 106.0 59.9 3.88 2444 70.1 34771 8038 1.534
SNPE Vectan SP 13 106.0 59.3 3.84 2423 78.4 30259 8649 1.627
Accurate 8700 106.0 60.6 3.92 2382 76.0 29969 8449 1.633
PB Clermont PCL 513/520/9520 106.0 59.3 3.84 2356 74.8 28569 8302 1.671
NC A3502 ,test only 106.0 56.8 3.68 2177 51.2 27710 6111 1.705
TLP A 502(RH) ,test only 106.0 56.8 3.68 2153 55.6 25804 6530 1.753

 

[Nimrod84]

DrVette,

I have an odd question for you - are you getting any contact rings or other deformities on the bullets? I'm wondering if the seating stem and bullet are a good fit; the stem could be introducing run-out or otherwise messing with the bullet alignment.

I'm not sure what velocity you require or desire, but from an OCW perspective I really like the 58.5-59 grain load. Velocities look very consistent, especially since you are using a high quality chronograph and 59.5 grains seems to be the edge consistency - 2939 fps then jumping into the 2960's. So potentially, small powder changes at 59.5 grains provides big fps jumps; and 60 grains while not as bad is still considerably worse than the 58.5 or 59 grain loads. Sample size that you reported though is very, very small and I assume you have additional velocity / data points.

Personally, given the data in the first post, I would try some different COALs around 59 grains and see what develops. Even if it is just to see how the ES widens with more data. Also, I've had good success with the 160 grain AccuBond in a 280 Rem and 280 AI with around a 0.03"-0.04" jump.

 

[magothy1]

Kinda late to the party, my older Sako .270 is so-so so far with 130's, but pretty good with 140's. It likes IMR 4831 under the Nosler 140 BT, and IMR 7828 under a Hornady 140, I forget the number right off, just a plain jane spitzer. Interlock, I believe.

 

[Wyo7200]

I’m having the same issue with a .260 rem and 140’s. Finally gave up on it, loaded 129 ablr’s and shot a fantastic group at 100. I adjusted my scope two clicks left and shot a bad 3” group at 100. Scopes off the rifle and is heading back to vortex on Monday. It’s tracking was bad during the 140’s testing too, but I wanted to rule out that it wasn’t the load.

Jumping- I was .01 off the lands and my es was pretty high. 30’s to 60’s. I seated a few a little deeper at .05 off the lands and it went down to single digits for those 5 I chronoed.

Keep us posted [emoji1303], and good luck!




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[steve99]

Is the action bedded and barrel free floated? If not, get it done. In my experience, range testing loads in hot weather always produce bad results, especially with factory sporter weight barrels. Try firing consecutive shots from a cold bore. When it's hot ( above 90F ) that often means waiting 15 - 20 minutes between shots.

 

[leadchucker]

my .270 was a picky bugger too. I could not get any type of 140's to shoot very good. It did not like h4831sc either. moved on to 150gr bullets and rl22 and its in its happy place now.