30-06, some numbers

[Guy Miner]

Jason's post got us going on the good ol' 30-06, and as I was reading through it I got to doing some more thinking about the grand old cartridge and how it stacks up.

Lately the 6.5 Creedmoor has become pretty doggone popular for hunting, after a decade of being a great match/target cartridge. It's reported to be accurate and soft-shooting, which is what I observed when I tried one at our gun club. I've read about what a great hunting cartridge it is too, though I've never hunted with one. Got to wondering how it stacks up against our moss-covered ol' warhorse and was a little surprised. I pulled all the numbers from my Nosler #7 manual:

6.5 Creedmoor

140 gr Partition, BC of .490, SD of .287 muzzle velocity of 2730 fps (fastest in the manual)

30-06

180 gr Partition, BC of .474, SD of .271 muzzle velocity of 2825 fps (fastest in the manual)


Dang, the ol .30 cal bullet isn't too far behind in terms of BC, and starts about 100 fps faster. Hmm... Like many others, I zero my general purpose hunting rifles at 200 yards, knowing that 300 yard hits are easy to make with that zero, and with a little practice a 400 yard shot is quite possible.

So - again - sticking with the Nosler manual because it makes life simple for me - and rounding the muzzle velocities to 2700 & 2800 fps. I looked at numbers out to 400 yards, still considered a pretty long shot in the field, for most of us.

The 30-06 drops about an inch less than the 6.5 at 300 yards, and almost two inches less at 400 yards. What? The good old 30-06 shoots flatter than the spiffy new 6.5 Creedmoor? Well, in this example, with these bullets and velocities, yes.

Both retain a little over 2,000 fps at 400 yards, ensuring reliable expansion from the Partition bullets too.

How about higher BC bullets? Without even getting into the ABLR series (with which I have no experience, but dang, those BC numbers look GOOD).

The 6.5 has a 140 gr AccuBond (or Ballistic Tip) with a BC of .509, a very good number! The 6.5 can launch that bullet at 2730 fps

The .30 cal has nothing to compare to that! Except:
168 E-Tip at .503
180 AccuBond or B-Tip at .507
180 E-Tip at .523
200 Partition at a perhaps surprising .481
200 AccuBond at .588

Hmmm... The 30-06 has no problem launching a 180 AccuBond (.507 BC) at 2800 fps. Basically the same BC and a little more velocity as the 6.5 Creedmoor. That translates to very similar drop & drift figures, with the edge going to the 30-06 cartridge.

Just thought that was a real interesting little look-see at some numbers, particularly for folks who think of the 30-06 as some sort of doddering old cripple, best suited for the whitetail woods.... :grin: Apparently it can shoot as flat, and drift about the same as the vaunted 6.5 Creedmoor. Of course that comes at the price of more recoil, probably not as accurate. But it comes with the benefit of a bigger, heavier bullet. Hmmm.

Thought those were some pretty interesting numbers. Maybe that old 30-06, gathering dust in the closet really is your "out west" rifle?

Guy

 

[elkhunternm]

Interesting numbers Guy. IMO,the 6.5 Creedmoor is just a "modern" version of the 6.5x55 Swede.

My question is,will the 6.5 Creedmoor be as popular as it is now in 112 years?

 

[lefty315]

In 112 years everyone will be eating algae burgers and hunting will be done in virtual simulation rooms....but just in case I'm wrong I think that new little 6.5 will still be here, I think it's been a winner.

 

[Rol_P]

Thanks for the comparison Guy, very interesting. When I have time I will try to do a similar comparison of the creedmore to the .270 win. Probably not as telling as your work, it will be interesting to see..

 

[Rol_P]

Thanks for the comparison Guy, very interesting. When I have time I will try to do a similar comparison of the creedmore to the .270 win. Probably not as telling as your work, it will be interesting to see..

 

[6mm Remington]

The 30-06 is one of my favorite cartridges if not the one. It's no wonder why. Remember back in I think 1935 or 1937 when the 300 H&H won the 1000 yard Wimbledon match that a 30-06 was actually tied with the same score. That's how I was told it went anyway.

 

[jason miller]

This is all well and good. And I have always had a fondness for the 30-06. But Bryan Litz has tested that 200 grain AccuBond to come up with a real-life BC around .524, if I'm remembering correctly. He also found that a 6.5mm 129 Hornady Interbond was at .518, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Considering that the Creed can easily do 2900 and potentially well over 3000 fps with the 129 and the 30-06 struggles to do much over 2700 with a similar BC bonded hunting bullet, I can see why the Creed is so popular. It's part of why I want to maximize my own 30-06's performance. If I'm gonna burn more powder and take more recoil, I want some benefit!

If we go to the LR AccuBond or the new ELD bullets, a Creedmoor or even a 7-08 both really give a 30-06 a run for its money. Quickload seems to think that RL26 can get the 140 class bullets going over 2900 in a Creedmoor. And I've personally loaded for a 22" 7-08 that did over 2700 with a 168 LRAB- which Litz tested at nearly .65 BC- and only used 46 grains of powder. A 30-06 has to be pushed pretty good just to match that 7-08 load for drop and drift. And I don't think you can beat a 147 ELD at 2900 fps for drop and drift with ANY 30-06 load, if that velocity is truly attainable in a Creedmoor and one doesn't mind shooting a very high SD target bullet at deer.

But the 30-06 will probably always beat the new and more efficient cartridges in nostalgia, bullet diameter/mass, and ammo availability if one doesn't reload. I'm not selling mine.

 

[JD338]

Interesting data Guy. The 30-06 is a time tested round for good reason, it's tough to beat.

JD338

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting post. Hard to not love the '06, for sure.

I also like the Creedmoor round. It's not the magic bullet that a lot of the fan club promotes it to be but it's still a very well designed cartridge that works really well with a long, heavy, high BC bullet.

 

[BretN]

Guy,

No one is supposed to question the greatness and superior ballistics of the 6.5 CM. You're like the little boy who told the emperor he was naked, rather than compliment his new clothes.

I'm sure the Credmoore is a great round, and someday I'd like to have one, or it's near ballistic twins the 260 Rem or 6.5x55 Mauser. But at normal hunting distances, it doesn't do anything my .280, 30-06, or .308 does already. It's hard to beat those old standards, but that never stopped most of us from buying yet another redundant cartridge for our gun collections. Still, I love my two 30-06's and can't imagine getting rid of them.

 

[35 Whelen]

Great post Guy,
When you look into a Creedmore, your looking at some of the cleverest, marketing ever launched onto the American public. A mini version of this hype was 15 years ago it was all about Short Magnum craze........ If you do not hand load the 6.5 CM has
some huge advantages, over a 260 or the Sweede. There are so many options on factory ammo for it , I can't Imagine it ???? :shock: Great selections for any application.! However both the 260/ and the x55 with easily outrun the CM, if you "roll your own". But the truth is the American public believes the Creedmore is a startling, revelation to the firearms world! :?

When you look at the 30/06 your looking at the "real deal" amazing performer, timeless classic that refuses to Give you its title, as the "King of Kalibers" I think these new ABLR bullets will make big news from muzzle of 06's in the very near future.

I my opinion there has Never been a caliber introduced in the history of firearms that had the horsepower behind it that the 6.5 CM has had, it's a great example of good packaging and fantastic advertising!!!

 

[TXbaldhunter]

I never appreciated the 30-06 until I bought one and started loading and also shooting my loads over a chronograph.I never really liked small rifles and preferred 7 magnums and 300 magnums.What I've noticed over the years hunting and some guiding too,is the size of the wound channels from different rounds.The 30 cal is only a little larger than the 284 cal,but the wound channel seems to be a little larger tof course you have to factor in different velocities and bullet styles play a role in this too.But overall,as you go down in bullet diameter,I usually notice a decrease in the wound channel size.Where I hunt in the thick thorny brush of South Texas,I'm only going to get one shot and that one shot has to make the kill.I see a lot of deer shot with smaller calibers and sometimes you have to wonder if the animal was hit.You go to where it was standing and search for sign and most of the time you really don't find much if the deer was hit.Then it's crawling on you hands and knees looking for the minuscule sign.On the other hand,the 30-06 is giving me DRT kills and blood sign on the ground as far as twenty feet past the deer.Now I like the 7 magnums,but I never noticed this as much as I do with the 30-06.At reasonable ranges,I think the 30-06 kills as good as a 300 magnum,the difference in power is blowing out the other side.So my conclusion is,yes the smaller dia. bullets will kill,but the larger dia. bullets do it with more authority on a consistent basis due to the larger dia. bullet creating a larger wound channel resulting in more rapid blood loss and more shock to the central nervous system.So I'm saying,2000lbs of energy from a 6.5 cal is not the same as 2000lbs of energy with a 30 cal.

 

[djauofd]

Great post Guy,
When you look into a Creedmore, your looking at some of the cleverest, marketing ever launched onto the American public. A mini version of this hype was 15 years ago it was all about Short Magnum craze........ If you do not hand load the 6.5 CM has
some huge advantages, over a 260 or the Sweede. There are so many options on factory ammo for it , I can't Imagine it ???? :shock: Great selections for any application.! However both the 260/ and the x55 with easily outrun the CM, if you "roll your own". But the truth is the American public believes the Creedmore is a startling, revelation to the firearms world! :?

When you look at the 30/06 your looking at the "real deal" amazing performer, timeless classic that refuses to Give you its title, as the "King of Kalibers" I think these new ABLR bullets will make big news from muzzle of 06's in the very near future.

I my opinion there has Never been a caliber introduced in the history of firearms that had the horsepower behind it that the 6.5 CM has had, it's a great example of good packaging and fantastic advertising!!!

Guys the 6.5 ceedmmor is a great round for what it is and from a marketing perspective hornady and others are providing a lot of selections of available ammo. A soft recoil, short action accurate round, which is very efficient. I have two remington 700's in 270 win. Another great all round cartridge capable of cycling everything from 85 gr through 150 grain bullets of every type of bullet. Great for everything withing 300 to 400 yds. However because of its basis of design the lower twist rate to handle all these loads, high BC bullets for long range work beyond 400 yds has been far and few between except for the Nosler ABLR BC .625. Accuracy however can be questionable in some rifles and stability is marginal. Well the 30 06 is another one of those iconic rifle calibers. A great all around performer. Actually my second choice to it's twin brother the 270 win.

Any hoot I ordered a McGowen 26" 1 × 8 twist Sendero profile barrel about 12 weeks ago so it should be getting here soon. With this barrel the 270 win becomes a true long range thumper, accurately throwing supersonic round 1,600 plus yards at sea level. Quick ballistics show a Berger 170 gr EOL Elite Hunter BC .662 to have roughly 1,096 ft lbs of energy at 1,000 yds and 1,941 ft lbs energy at 500 yds. At 5,000 ft elevation it extends supersonic bullet capability to out beyond 2,000 yds. I Pulled off the old barrel from a 2008 rem 700 buckmaster, (that was an interesting experience, it did not want to come off) trued reciever and lapped lugs. Talk about a mild recoil performance round. Yes the 30 06 is a great round and I would take that or a 270 win over a 6.5 Creedmoor any day of the week unless I was looking at an AR10 platform. In a AR 10 platform I would take a 308 win over a 6.5 Creedmoor any day as well. Which speaks to why I have two AR10'S in 308. Both builds have Black Hole Weaponry 20" barrels that shoot lights out. One is Semi Bull profile and one HBAR profile. When sighting in my semi bull at 50 yds first time out I shot my first rounds and the rifle was slightly off low and right I adjusted my impact point and I fired the next round, dead center. Fired next round and it appeared to not be on paper. I did this 3 more rounds and I could not see any other reports on paper through my 5 x25 scope on high power. I went to target and you could see they were corn holing the same impact point. They were so tight it was barely visible. Can't shoot a tighter group than that and I have been shooting since I was in 8th grade. I am 64 now and that has never happened. The HBAR profile shows the same accuracy. This was with Men M80 ball 147 gr military surplus ammo, not even hand loads. That was in October and I started some handload ladders but work is crazy, I am in construction and the market for me is going crazy. But I will be out there shortly. But yes the 308 win is like the 30 06 as well great round, really versital love it. BTW I muzzel braked the 308's so while it may be a little loud, felt recoil is like a 260 remimgton or less.

Come back in fifty years from now and I think you will see the icons 270 win, 30 06 and 308 win will still be going strong. Truly awesome cartridges with a plethora of different factory loads to choose from and bullets to choose from as hand loaders. IMHO.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

 

[bowfishn]

Here are my results from obtaining best groups and lowest SD with upper end loads all below 62K according to QL. I have run higher speeds with no pressure signs but these are the best for accuracy. Magnetospeed used for velocities.
6.5 Creedmoor
26" Barrel Build Savage long action
130 ELD-M 3050 fps
140 ELD-M 2990 fps
147 ELD-M 2930 fps
143 ELD-X 2998 fps

24" Barrel 10BA Stealth
130 ELD-M 3030 fps
147 ELD-M 2850 fps

But QL predicts the 30-06 also shows promise with RL26 and heavy bullets over 2700 fps with 200+ gr bullets, I will be testing my Sako Finnbear when I get a chance next summer and see how it actually pans out.

 

[Rol_P]

6.5 Creedmoor
140 gr Partition, BC of .490, SD of .287 muzzle velocity of 2730 fps (fastest in the manual)

270 Winchester
160 gr Partition, BC of .434, SD of .298 muzzle velocity of 2828 fps (fastest on-line Nosler Data)

30-06
180 gr Partition, BC of .474, SD of .271 muzzle velocity of 2825 fps (fastest in the manual)

6.5 Creedmoor .270 Winchester 30-06 Springfield
140 gr Partition 160 gr Partition 180 gr Partition
YDS Drop (“) Energy Drop (“) Energy Drop (“) Energy
200 0 1,750 0 2,075 0 2,371
300 -8.1 1,506 -7.7 1,754 -7.7 2,034
400 -23.4 1,290 -22.6 1,473 -22.1 1,735

200 yard energy per grain of powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor is 13.7% and 10.4% more than the
.270 Winchester and 30-06 Springfield used in this comparison respectively.

Quoting Guy:
“Dang, the ol .30 cal bullet isn't too far behind in terms of BC, and starts about 100 fps faster. Hmm... Like many others, I zero my general purpose hunting rifles at 200 yards, knowing that 300 yard hits are easy to make with that zero, and with a little practice a 400 yard shot is quite possible.”
Nosler published data and JBM Ballisitcs were used in this compilation.

 

[preacher]

The 30-06 was used a lot when I was kid, in East, Texas. One reason was all the surplus 1917 Enfield's, and '03 Springfield's. Also, places like Herter's and some of the early stores carried inexpensive "sporters" of same. I drooled at my best friends JC Higgins FN 30-06. he even had a Leupold 3x9 on it! The 30-06 we considered "like a magnum" on those little deer, even hogs and really, even the 30-30 was considered a "big gun", BUT 30-06 rifles were 'everywhere", ha. Long range down there was on a pipeline right of way or train track right of way. Some guys bragged of taking 500yds shots, which usually turned to be a true 300yds or so, ha. But with the right load and the right shooter, its "shame on him time" , i.e Carlos Hatchcock style, ha.

 

[1100 Remington Man]

Guy I just received my Hornady product guide in the mail and while looking through it and there ballistics for there Factory ammunition and higher BC bullets, Yes your 30-06 is very impressive and brings into question does anyone really need a Magnum ?
I would say No for 99% of the hunting I have ever done. From Iowa, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado is where I have hunted Big Game.

 

[Guy Miner]

Guy I just received my Hornady product guide in the mail and while looking through it and there ballistics for there Factory ammunition and higher BC bullets, Yes your 30-06 is very impressive and brings into question does anyone really need a Magnum ?
I would say No for 99% of the hunting I have ever done. From Iowa, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado is where I have hunted Big Game.

I've still got three "magnum" rifles - but really don't need them:

300 WSM Model 70 - a particularly accurate rifle, if a tad heavy for my taste
375 H&H Ruger Number One - admittedly I like it mostly because of the cool factor
375 H&H Model 70 - because I haven't yet given up on the idea of a cape buff hunt

And my son has a 257 Wby magnum, a very early one that's been used by four generations of our family now. I think it'll stick around for nostalgia if nothing else.

But ya, I'm very confident in the 30-06 and shoot it well.

Regards, Guy