30-06 vs others??

[jason miller]

The thread on 30-06 vs 7mm RM got me thinking...

A .338 WM is basically a big 30-06. It will push a 250 grain bullet to about 2750. Or at least that's as fast as I can get mine to push a 250. 200's don't quite get 3K in my rifle. And 185 ttsx's, for whatever reason, don't really go much faster than a 200 for me.

My 30-06 will throw a 200/208 just as fast as my .338 will a 250. 165's scoot along just as fast as a .338 200 grainer. And a 150 ttsx will damn near nudge 3100 fps. And it does so with less recoil in a slightly lighter rifle.

So what's the return on that recoil price? I'd guess that more elk are taken every year with a 30-06 than a .338, and probably by a wiiiiide margin. If the 30-06 works just fine, then why bother with the additional recoil, rifle weight, and component costs? We can't even argue range, because heavier bullets are where you pick up advantage at long range, and the best heavies for the 30-06 are just as good as any .338 250's. (I'm not interested in slinging 300's at 2450 and not even being able to fit them in the magazine.)

And if a .338 offers no real practical advantage over the 30-06, then why stop there? A 7mm-08 will push a 160/168 just as fast as a 30-06 will 200's or a .338 will 250's. Or a 140 damn near as fast as a 30-06 will 165's or a .338 will 200's.

So, can anyone come up with some actual, compelling reasons for the steps up in cartridge size/recoil? I ask because I'm wondering why I even own both a .338 and a 30-06. For that matter, why not just drop both and go 7mm-08 when my short action Rem 700 eventually gets a new barrel...?

 

[Guy Miner]

:mrgreen:

I think a lot of us believe, or have believed, that MORE POWER is the answer...

I'm not the most experienced hunter here - far from it - but in my experience, on deer sized game, the cartridge used matters little. Put a decent, expanding bullet where it counts, and you've got venison.

As I've only shot one big ol' bull elk ever, with a 7mm Rem mag by the way, I'll defer to the elk hunters re their opinions on what works for bigger beasties.

Regards, Guy

 

[DrMike]

Guy's analysis is correct--bullet placement is far more important than is either velocity and/or mass (MORE POWER). I have no doubt that frontal area does promote tissue damage, and perhaps even increases hydrostatic shock. Likewise, mass does play a role in creating momentum to ensure that a bullet pushes through the entire body cavity. However, at the velocities generated by smaller calibres with premium bullets, penetration and hydrostatic shock are sufficient to ensure a quick death of very large game animals. I will say that MORE POWER is comforting when hunting in areas shared with grizzlies; but the comfort is because of the possibility of meeting said bruin and not because the greater energy is required for the moose and/or elk hunted.

 

[jason miller]

About what I figured you two would say. So, my 30-06 featherweight that's a finicky pain in my butt due to the thin barrel should hit the road and my .338 that just got a new stock and could use a new barrel should become a 30-06 or perhaps 7mm Rem...

 

[DrMike]

Sorry to hear that your '06 is a problem rifle. I have a Featherweight chambered in 30-06. It delivers acceptable accuracy, as do all eleven Featherweights I currently own. My usual procedure on any new Featherweight is to bed the rifle (usually pillar bedding is employed) to allow removal of the hot glue bedding provided by the factory. Out of over seventeen or eighteen Featherweight rifles that received this attention, only one has refused to improve accuracy. Before sending the rifle down the road, I would be inclined to inspect the bedding. The fix is quick and relatively inexpensive.

Unless your 338 has been abused, the barrel shouldn't be "shot out." On the other hand, if you want a different cartridge to work with, there is nothing wrong with rebarreling the rifle. I've certainly done the same with several rifles. As I have often contended, one could do far worse than to have a 30-06 or a 7 RM in the arsenal. Either will serve the North American hunter very well.

 

[Guy Miner]

"all eleven Featherweights" :grin:

 

[Guy Miner]

And that said, for some reason I have TWO .375 H&H mags and a .300 WSM in my gun safe, so power still seems to attract me for some reason...

 

[DrMike]

"all eleven Featherweights" :grin:

Yup! All eleven. Consequently, I've finally reached the point that I'm preparing to "thin the herd" over the coming year. This last trip to the mountains hurt enough to convince me to step back from the aggressive pursuit of the shooting sports.

 

[Charlie-NY]

Considering how many shots you will actually take on game, I really don't see how the recoil is much of an issue. A little extra horsepower on game animals that can be surprisingly tough is not a bad thing.

Why are so many more animals taken with the 30-06 than the 338 Win; just look at the total sales figures. There are probably 1,000 30-06s out there for every 338 Win.

I guess you could always use a 243 Win with a premium bullet and good shot placement but I'd be inclined to move in the opposite direction. Keep your 338 Win and go huntin".

 

[69gto]

When you have take a bull elk at a bad angle or hit one a little far back the larger frontal area of a.338 cal. will win out every time. Living in nw Oregon for 70 years I have seen dozens of kills and heard about countless others. I killed my first 11 bulls with a .270 win. but for serious elk hunting I'll take a .338 every time. If you are on an expensive trophy hunt or a hunt that took 20 years to draw you want every advantage possible. If you are recoil sensitive that's another story.

 

[6mm Remington]

And that said, for some reason I have TWO .375 H&H mags and a .300 WSM in my gun safe, so power still seems to attract me for some reason...

Maybe I speak out of turn but I sure thought you had a 45-70 also Guy in a lever action Marlin??????

 

[jason miller]

Mike, I bedded the 30-06. And it shoots well. But only with certain loads. And every bullet weight impacts several inches apart from each other. And it gets hot, fast. I like to shoot. A lot. Shooting 3 rounds in 10 minutes and then putting the rifle away is not for me.

And when it comes to that, I've burnt at least 40 rounds of .338 WM in a day several times- along with shooting other rifles, too. It's not that I can't do it, but if there really isn't that much of an advantage, then why?

Oh, and the reason I'm thinking the .338 might have a new barrel in its future is because it's an old Savage that fouls pretty badly and stops shooting worth a damn when it's fouled. And it's also picky about its loads, too. Part of that might be because it has as much freebore as a frickin' weatherby. It would be nice to be able to load something to magazine length that comes even close to the lands. Oh, and finally, it has plugged open sight holes that drive me nuts, and a dumbass countour that goes from fat as hell at the breech to skinny as hell at the muzzle. The back of the barrel won't even fit in the BC Medalist I just ordered for it. And I can't get rid of the damn rifle because it was a gift.

I don't mind the .338. It just seems unneeded...

 

[pharmseller]

Interesting read:

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.p ... highlight=

I'm all about the where, not the with what.




P

 

[DrMike]

Got ya! Nothing wrong with playing with the rifles. I have managed to do the same many times over. Perhaps the playing wasn't necessary, but I had the ability and the desire--that was reason enough.

 

[BF375]

This is what I call the Concept of Creeping Incrementalism,the illogical conclusion of which is that the 7/08 is the practical equivalent of the 338 Win Mag.

Both will kill elk of course but the notion that they are the same is silly. There are differences between 300 and 338 magnums resulting from heavier, tougher bullets, higher velocity, greater expanded frontal area, etc. You may not see the differences shooting deer but you will if you shoot enough herd bulls and other heavy game with both.

There is a lot more difference between them than there is between the 7/08, 270,and 280AI that we spend so much time discussing. Those cartridges can all be stuffed in the same bag when it comes to killing animals.

 

[Guy Miner]

And that said, for some reason I have TWO .375 H&H mags and a .300 WSM in my gun safe, so power still seems to attract me for some reason...

Maybe I speak out of turn but I sure thought you had a 45-70 also Guy in a lever action Marlin??????

Had a pair of them, for a total of 9 years. Started with the Guide Gun, went to the 1895 which was a wonderful rifle. My neighbor wanted it real bad, and I had a hankering to try something else...

So I sold it and bought the .375 H&H Ruger Number One which has proven to be another wonderful rifle!

Guy

 

[Thankful Otter]

Guy's analysis is correct--bullet placement is far more important than is either velocity and/or mass (MORE POWER). I have no doubt that frontal area does promote tissue damage, and perhaps even increases hydrostatic shock. Likewise, mass does play a role in creating momentum to ensure that a bullet pushes through the entire body cavity. However, at the velocities generated by smaller calibres with premium bullets, penetration and hydrostatic shock are sufficient to ensure a quick death of very large game animals. I will say that MORE POWER is comforting when hunting in areas shared with grizzlies; but the comfort is because of the possibility of meeting said bruin and not because the greater energy is required for the moose and/or elk hunted.

This !

Which is my-- return on recoil price-- as Dr Mike said more power is very comforting when you find yourself standing toe to toe with a brown or white bear, while out looking for dinner.

Guy, Dr Mike has more featherweights than I have rifles

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

I've been on elk hunts where there were varying rifles and cartridges. The lowest being a .270 all the way up to the .338 Win Mag. My personal choice was a .300 Win Mag. Now, the gentleman who had the .270 was a little green, and would take just about any kinda shot on a decent bull. He shot a bull that was too long of distance for the .270, and had to shoot 4 times before watching his bull disappear up and over a mountain. The guys with .308's and .30-06's were a lot more seasoned hunters, they got in closer, and waited for broadside shots, and were pretty successful. Usually had their bulls in a few steps, if not instant kills. I did the same with my .300 Win Mag, and the bull took about 15 shaky steps, and slumped. The guys with .338 Win Mags got in somewhat close, but didn't choose their shots. One rear ended a bull, the other got a quartering shot away, and punched through the paunch a little, and got the vitals, then exited the chest.
The guy with his .270 finally found his bull well after sundown. But his shot placement was good.
The guys with the .308's and .30-06's were great shots, and bullet placement was dead on for heart shots.
Mine was double lung through both shoulders.
My point is, bullet placement is everything. You get the heart and lungs, it's game over usually within a few steps.
The guys with the .338's were taking shots they normally wouldn't because of the extra power of their cartridges. Did they hit the vitals, yes. But the bullets went through a lot of gut to get there.
It just depends on how you hunt something as well. Are you a patient hunter? Will you pass up the rear shot? Or will you wait for the perfect text book broadside shot?
Supposed lesser cartridges will get the job done, if you get your bullet placement just right.
Don't hang your hat on the "Big" Magnums and take daring shots that you wouldn't normally with a "lesser" cartridge, because it has way more power.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[pharmseller]

This is what I call the Concept of Creeping Incrementalism,the illogical conclusion of which is that the 7/08 is the practical equivalent of the 338 Win Mag.

Both will kill elk of course but the notion that they are the same is silly. There are differences between 300 and 338 magnums resulting from heavier, tougher bullets, higher velocity, greater expanded frontal area, etc. You may not see the differences shooting deer but you will if you shoot enough herd bulls and other heavy game with both.

There is a lot more difference between them than there is between the 7/08, 270,and 280AI that we spend so much time discussing. Those cartridges can all be stuffed in the same bag when it comes to killing animals.

Where I hunt in the Oregon Cascade Range, shots rarely exceed 150 yards. The 4x4 bull I shot with my 7mm-08 was 68 yards.

If a guy is regularly shooting 400 yards then yeah, maybe a magnum makes sense. Otherwise, dead is dead. Like you said, they both kill elk. As far as the elk is concerned, they're the same.




P

 

[salmonchaser]

The last week I've gutted two elk, shot from the same rock pile. They were within 30 feet of each other when hit. The terrain gives a slightly quartering target at 250 yards. Both were hit a touch back, tracking through the liver. Both hunters were after meat and concerned about destroying the shoulder, both were told to wait till she steps then shoot, both held a little back any way.
.25/06; 120 gr. Partition vs .338 Wm; 220 gr. TTSX
I learned as a kid to take advantage of every tracking situation.
It boiled down to this from my perspective, no blood trail from the 25/06 vs a blood trail from the 338.
Certainly both elk would have died without the follow up but recovery would have been much more likely with a blood trail.
I've killed quite a few elk with a .30/06 it's perfectly adequate. I also put four 180 gr. partitions in front of the diaphragm of a good bull once, he just wouldn't stop. Only one exited as I recall.
No I wouldn't feel under gunned with an 06, or similar cartridge for elk but based on my experience I think there is difference between a 250 gr. bullet smashing through those massive shoulders and a 180 gr. bullet or a 175gr. 7mm.
Necessary, no. Dead is dead. Deader is bedder. Sorry couldn't resist.



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