.308 with heavy for caliber bullets

[Silent Sam]

That right there is some excellent advice! That way the guide will know exactly what you are capable of and where he has to get you to on the hunt. Confidence for everyone in the camp is a good thing.

 

[PJGunner]

Call me lazy if you wish :lol: but I just sight in 3" high at 100 yards and forget about it. Read that in an older Lyman Ideal loading manual that was part of a seed of tricks by the late Warren Page. Been doing it that way since I started reloading and hunting with a scoped rifle. I was all of 16 Y. O. back then. I sight just about all my rifles in that way and it hasn't failed me yet. Cow elk at 530 yards, laser measured. Held even with the top of her baks and a very slight bit of day ingt. On shot, one very dead cow elk. Rifle? A 300 Win. Mag. with a 200 gr. Speer Hot Core pushing 2900 FPS. What's not to like? The only cartridge I sight in otherwise is the 30-30 and I don't shoot that one very often. Maybe I should change that. :lol:
Paul B.

 

[BretN]

I agree with everything said above. 165-180 grain well constructed bullets will do well. Study the bullet boards, it's a wealth of information. If you are proficient at 200, 300 yards shouldn't be too difficult. However, start practicing now shooting from field positions, sitting, kneeling etc. I learned the hard way that shooting benches are few and far between out west. Being comfortable shooting from improvised positions is key. Good luck.

 

[nosler06]

Welcome to the forum.

In my 308 win I use 45 gr Varget with 165 AccuBond or Partition. I would tackle ANY NA animal with this load.

THAT is a classic combo for the .308 Win! 45 grains of Varget and a quality 165 gr bullet...

And it's the same load that has done so well for me in 600 yard competition (with a 168 gr match bullet) and also in the field with a 165 gr Nosler hunting bullet.

I'd really recommend going for the 165 at 2800 fps vs the 200 gr bullet at 2400-2500 fps.

Elk aren't always found at short range. If you want a good chance at smacking one at 300+ yards, you'll appreciate the flatter trajectory of the 165 at 2700-2800 fps.

Not saying a 200 gr Partition at 2400 fps won't work - but it might be easier with a 165 moving 300 fps faster.

Regards, Guy

Welcome aboard.

I agree totally with Guy and Fotis the .308 with a 165gr PT is an ideal pill for any NA game. I can also from experience tell you that I have taken elk and moose with an older .308 BLR and the 165gr PT's. Any where from 125 to 300yds with no problems. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Thebear_78]

Just run the 165gr Partition or if your really worried about it step up to a mono metal bullet in 165-168. It will easily do for any moose you run across.

I worked up a couple of 200gr loads for my son and nephew in case they drew a bison tag. Mimium 200gr bullet for bison in alaska. I used CFE 223 for my loads and was getting 2475fps out of my sons 17” barreled encore. I also tried IMR 4895 and H414 but the CFE223 gave best velocity by far.

Speer hotcore 200gr
CFE 223 44.5gr
Win LR primer
winchester brass

Given my choice I would still rather run a 165 Partition over the 200 even on bison.

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

Hi, a bit of an update.

I decided to go through with trying the 200 grain Partition after substantial research online and some consideration. I bought a few different powders for the 308 (Varget and Rx17 being the two I'm spending the most time with) and a box of 180gr Accubonds and 200gr partitions. I am using Nosler brass because I don't have the time I wish I had with a newborn to spend prepping Winchester brass.

No one batts an eye at the case capacity with 180gr Accubonds, but the 200gr partitions are actually a shorter bullet (by a hair only). So I don't believe I am sacrificing case capacity here, certainly no more than with 180gr accubonds. I seated the bullets to an OAL of around 2.820 on average (some ended up around 2.825, some down by 2.815). My magazine has plenty of space to accomodate a COL larger than this, and I verified no issues chambering the round. I could probably go longer by another .015. I haven't crimped the bullets yet (I use a Lee factory crimp). Just looking for some last minute advice before I do and I take the chronograph to the range. I am using CCI200 Large Rifle Primers.

I started at 42grains of Reloader 17 and worked up in 0.5grain increments, stopping at 46grains per the load data provided above. I am wondering if 42grains is a safe enough starting point? I have four rounds at each powder charge.

I am also wondering how the switch to Nosler brass vs. Winchester will effect those numbers. As I understand it, Winchester is the thinnest brass and has the most case capacity. From what I can tell online, Nosler is around the same as Winchester, some even suggesting Nosler brass is made by Winchester but just prepped. I started weighing the empty brass and they seemed to converge around 170grains or so. Out of the box they were around 2.00" long, most that I measured were between 1.98" and 2.00" so fairly consistent stuff. I am just worried if the brass is any thicker... I'm thinking of my college chemistry classes as the Volume decreases, I'd expect pressure to increase.

Also - as I approach max loads, are 0.5grain powder increments a safe enough step?

Some people online are citing loads much higher than max with Rx17 so I'm feeling comfortable with what I've loaded thus far. Just doing a last minute check before I hit the range.

Thanks

 

[kraky1]

FWIW I have a savage le 308 rifle with 26 inch barrel. I have worked up to the numbers you see in those Quickload predictions easily but my lot of reloader 17 appeared to be right on the money so don't go past it.
I haven't shot my gun a lot but the 190 Nosler competition and 208 a Max look pretty good. Now that I've said that I'm going to switch directions and tell you you should look really hard at a 150 etip. If it shoots accurately you'll have the speed of a 150, the ballistic coefficient of a 165, and that bullet on impact will hold likely as much weight as you're 200 Partition!

 

[wildgene]

...I just ran the 165, 180, 200gr. NPT's @ 2800, 2600, 2500fps, respectively, thru my Sierra ballistics program, there's not enough difference in delivered energy out to 400yds. to make a spit of difference (<= 100ft.lbs). Given the seating depth & other issues you're likely to encounter w/ the 200gr. NPT, I'd probably go w/ the 165gr., or 180gr. I kill elk on a pretty regular basis using a 165/180gr. out of my .300WSM, 160/175gr. 7mm...

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

You're right in that there is no difference in kinetic energy (mass*velocity^2). But there is a difference in momentum (mass*velocity), from what I can tell its around 10% at 300 yards compared to the 165 grain, depending how high I can get that velocity on the 200 grainers. There are many factors that go into this, obviously bullet design plays a huge part too, but I believe there's more to consider than kinetic energy at the point of impact.

I don't see the seating depth issue being claimed in the real world with the 200 grain Partition. I'll have to post a picture of the a 180 AccuBond and a 200 Partition side by side.

Trajectory: according to a ballistics calculator I am using, the 165 grain at an achievable speed will have 9 inches of drop at 300 yards. The 200 grain a little over 11 inches. We are talking about 2 inches on a target the size of a moose. At 350 yards its 4 inches difference.

 

[SJB358]

I like for caliber bullets a lot, but I'd also make sure your going to get the expansion your after at your desired impact range. The 200 PT and 180 AB are fairly tough bullets but should expand decent down to around 2000 FPS. It would be worth running a couple into a medium like magazines, water jugs, etc to make sure your getting what you want.

 

[RaySendero]

You'll be fine if you charge forward with 200's but you'd do well with 165 ABs or PTs as well. Plus you'd gain some useful trajectory. Check out the bullet test section. Some great info in there.

SJB358's comment early on, basically echos my thinking!
Have been reading this thread, but not posted till now.

I also tend toward heavy for caliber bullets, but not to the extreme.
I load 165s in my 1:12 twist 308. And yes, I did see where yours has the 1:10 twist. So rifle should be fine with 200 gr bullets.

I'd add, That if you really see a need to go with that heavy of a bullet in a 308 - MAYBE you need a another rifle in a larger cartridge?

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

I like for caliber bullets a lot, but I'd also make sure your going to get the expansion your after at your desired impact range. The 200 PT and 180 AB are fairly tough bullets but should expand decent down to around 2000 FPS. It would be worth running a couple into a medium like magazines, water jugs, etc to make sure your getting what you want.

Yes, according to the ballistics calculator I have 2000fps out to 250 yards, 1925 at 300. I don't dip below 1800, which is the stated minimum on the Nosler website, until 400 yards. My plan was to use milk jugs filled with water or newspaper stacks to test penetration at 300 yards.

 

[Guy Miner]

I'd add, That if you really see a need to go with that heavy of a bullet in a 308 - MAYBE you need a another rifle in a larger cartridge?

This is too simple Ray...

Though I have shot 190 gr match bullets rather well through my .308 Win (it was a very popular 600 yard match combo not too many years ago), when I want to move a 180 - 220 grain .30 cal bullet faster, I turn to the .30-06 or .300 WSM. Both of which are fine cartridges with a fair bit more powder capacity than the .308 Win. And both of which are capable of excellent accuracy.

Still - this is an interesting exercise in handloading, and the OP isn't the only one to give it a go.

"LifeAndLiberty" - I "think" you'll be okay with your 1/2 grain increments, but please, use caution and approach listed max loads with due caution. I run max level loads in several of my rifles with apparently no problems, but I've run into some interesting things over the years, particularly with my .308 Win match rifle - like a load that was perfectly safe all spring became demonic when the ambient air temp soared during a 600 yard match I was shooting! Had to ditch a bunch of once-fired Lapua brass as the primer pockets had enlarged so much. The rifle had some pretty danged stiff bolt lift during that episode too. Accuracy was excellent, but obviously there was too much pressure being developed.

I went back to my proven loads with Varget and the 155 gr Nosler match bullet and never had a problem after that.

LifeAndLiberty - I forget what your intent was with this load. Hunting or long-range match shooting?

Regards, Guy

 

[gerry]

You should be good as far as expansion goes based on those numbers. I wouldn't hesitate to do it if that's what you want to do. It would work very well for animals like moose, elk and grizzly especially at closer ranges, it would probably penetrate into next week.........

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

I'd add, That if you really see a need to go with that heavy of a bullet in a 308 - MAYBE you need a another rifle in a larger cartridge?

I never said I needed a 200 grain .308. I said I wanted to try it, and I gave the stated purpose - for hunting big game. I want to experiment for myself and figure it out. Many people are finding with Reloader 17 they are able to achieve velocities with 200 grain bullets like you would typically pull off with a 180 grain projectile. I see no reason not to give it a shot, measure its results, and make an informed decision. The only objections people have raised has been trajectory, case capcity, and velocity. I'm not punching paper, I'm punching holes in something the size of a Moose or Elk. Zeroed at 200 yards, I'm only 2 to 2 and a half inches lower with 200's compared to 165's at 300 yards. Not enough of a difference IMO to be concerned about, and that's pushing the edge of the .308's effective range with any bullet. Everyone's fine with the 180 accubonds, but the 180 AccuBond is a longer bullet than the 200 Partition, so Case capacity is not a legitimate argument either. The only legitimate argument is at what speed can I push the 200 grain projectile without showing signs of excessive pressure.

 

[SJB358]

I'd add, That if you really see a need to go with that heavy of a bullet in a 308 - MAYBE you need a another rifle in a larger cartridge?

I never said I needed a 200 grain .308. I said I wanted to try it, and I gave the stated purpose - for hunting big game. I want to experiment for myself and figure it out. Many people are finding with Reloader 17 they are able to achieve velocities with 200 grain bullets like you would typically pull off with a 180 grain projectile. I see no reason not to give it a shot, measure its results, and make an informed decision. The only objections people have raised has been trajectory, case capcity, and velocity. I'm not punching paper, I'm punching holes in something the size of a Moose or Elk. Zeroed at 200 yards, I'm only 2 to 2 and a half inches lower with 200's compared to 165's at 300 yards. Not enough of a difference IMO to be concerned about, and that's pushing the edge of the .308's effective range with any bullet. Everyone's fine with the 180 accubonds, but the 180 AccuBond is a longer bullet than the 200 Partition, so Case capacity is not a legitimate argument either. The only legitimate argument is at what speed can I push the 200 grain projectile without showing signs of excessive pressure.

I apologize if it came off like that at all. I load and shoot all sorts of different bullets for different cartridges. Just yesterday I loaded 108 Scenars, 130 Scirroco, 130 AB and 156 Lapua Megas in my little 6.5 Swede, just cause. So I do understand it.

I'm looking forward to your results as well with RL17. Should be good.

 

[PJGunner]

"The only legitimate argument is at what speed can I push the 200 grain projectile without showing signs of excessive pressure."

The following is from an earlier version of, "The Complete Reloading Manual for the .308 Winchester". It's just a compilation of data from most loading manuals.

Hornady: 190 gr. BTSP, Two loads that top out at 2500 FPS

Nosler: One load at 2460 FPS

Sierra: Four loads that max out at 2450 FPS *

Speer: One load at 2518 FPS

Hodgden: No load over 2344 FPS**

Hercules (now Alliant) No load over 2384 FPS**

Winchester: No load over 2381**

* I've always felt Sierra's data to be a bit on the conservative side.

**All data marked ** show C.U.P. pressures in the mid to low 40K level.

Just MHO but it looks as if all the data from that book is a bit conservative. Take it for whatever it's worth but I believe it gives an idea of what you're looking at regarding velocity.
Just for spits and grins, I once ran a chronograph series comparison the 180 gr. 30-06 Power Point load agains the same load in the .308. The 06 is advertised at 2700 FPS and I got around 2610/20 FPS from a 2" barrel. The only one that came close to advertised was when I shot it in the 26" barreled Ruger #1B.
The .308 load on the other hand did 2600 and change from a 22" Winchester M70. I didn't have any longer barreled rifles to see what the results might have been.
As mentioned, the book is an earlier version. Later versions do not even show data for 200 and 220 gr. bullets. It may be possible to reach the speed you're looking for with some of the newer powders. AS long as you're looking at 200 gr. bullets, take a look at the 200 gr. Speer hot Core. Ay .308 speeds it should act just like a premium bullet on big game like elk and moose. I've run that bullet to almost 2900 FPS from a .300 Win. Mag. and dropped a cow elk at 530 laser measured yards. Estimated velocity at impact 1995 FPS according to Speer's tables.
Paul B.

 

[RaySendero]

I'd add, That if you really see a need to go with that heavy of a bullet in a 308 - MAYBE you need a another rifle in a larger cartridge?

I never said I needed a 200 grain .308. .....

L&L, Didn't mean to start a stir.
Somehow you quoted me quoting SJB358 saying some I said - Not SJB358!

I wrote: I'd add, That if you really see a need to go with that heavy of a bullet in a 308 - MAYBE you need a another rifle in a larger cartridge?

That's just me. I tend toward heavy for caliber bullets and I tend to customize or build a rifle with one purpose/goal from the start. As such I focus my reloading efforts to make the one "best" reload for that purpose I can (there's a couple of "special cases" where I've had to work-up more than one for a rifle). But generally I stay with one. When hunting or shooting competition I pick the rifle that best fits the situation.

PS: More rifles are a good thing!

 

[LifeAndLiberty]

If a stir managed to get started, then I'm probably equally or moreso to blame. Very rough weekend at work. Yes, weekend at work.

More rifles is definitely a good thing! However, I'm trying to see how much I can squeeze out of this .308 before I drop coin on another rifle, glass, reloading dies, brass, bullets, powder, etc. etc. The other issue is I live in New England, where you are kidding yourself if you think you need anything beyond a 30-06. Selling what I consider an incredible .308 for only 100fps more of the 30-06 doesn't sit well. I'm looking into a rifle a step up from the 06, namely the 7mm Remington Magnum, but again, the longest range I know of around my parts is 200 yards, and its rare to find a shot on game in excess of that in the Northeast woods. We don't have vast farmlands either. So its a tough sell to justify a 300winmag for instance unless I'm planning an out of state hunt every year. I know, that doesn't sound like such a bad thing either......

I'll be getting to the range some time this week, I'll update what I find here. I need at least 2400fps on the 200 grainers to make it worthwhile, preferably 2425 or 2450. If I can't hit those numbers before showing signs of pressure, I'll consider it a failed theory and resort back to the 180 accubonds or partitions.

 

[gerry]

The old Canadian company Imperial used to offer a 200 gr soft point called the KKSP that I'm sure had a bunch of moose to it's credit. I think it is a good idea to give it a try especially since it sounds shots will be under 200 yards. I'm going to be developing a 30-06 220 gr Partition load for exactly the same purpose as you so I'm on board