7mm RM vs 338 WM

[jason miller]

I've been considering getting a new barrel for one of my rifles- a .338 WM that was gifted to me. The throat is so long that I can't seat anything anywhere near the lands, and it fouls pretty quickly. Also, it's a Savage and has a short magazine (3.475"ish), so anything loaded very long at all will have the tips deformed while in the magazine during recoil.

I kinda like the .338WM, already have dies, brass, and some bullets, and wouldn't mind keeping it in the same chambering as it was given to me. But then, I have no desire to ever hunt big bears and don't really need a .338WM. So I considered going 7RM.

I already have another Savage in 7RM that I picked up for a song awhile back, but I would have no problems sending it down the road if I had this other rifle done in 7RM. So again, I already have dies and some bullets if I wanted a new 7RM tube. Also, a 7RM would probably be just about as good as a .338WM on deer or elk.

The drop and drift of a 7RM outshine the .338WM- either 160's at a little over 3K vs. 200's/210's at a little under 3K; or 175 Partitions/180 Bergers at 2900ish vs. 250 Partitions/250 Bergers at 2700ish. But then, that big .338" bullet should pack a wallop that the 7mm can't.

Recoil in the .338 doesn't seem much worse than the 7RM I already have, and I can shoot good groups with either- although not until I figured out that the .338 had the front action screw bottoming out and lightly contacting the bolt's lug. Also, I already have a cheap, but accurate, .243 and a nice, but finicky, 30-06. I don't really need either the .338 or the 7mm...


Anybody have more to add? I'd appreciate any good thoughts that could sway me in one direction, because I just can't make up my mind.

 

[FOTIS]

How does the 338 shoot?

 

[jason miller]

I have gotten 5 shots into 1"-1.25" at 100 more than once, so pretty good. But I just hate having that long throat. For example, 225 accubonds need to be somewhere a little over 3.5" to reach the lands. I can't remember exactly, but it was between 3.5" and 3.55".

I guess I haven't really tried seating bullets deep enough to keep them from deforming the tips under recoil. Maybe it would still be accurate. But I don't know how deep I would need to seat them to keep them from being damaged...

Also, call me vain, but the factory barrel used to have open sights and the holes now have little allen-headed filler screws in them. And finally, the factory contour is only .580" at the muzzle- not a lot of steel when there's a .338" hole in the middle. I wish I hadn't measured because it probably doesn't matter; but it annoys me.


Any idea if it's possible to lengthen the magazine on an old Savage? It doesn't look like there would be, but maybe someone has an idea...

 

[FOTIS]

Personally If she shoots like that I would keep her. Can not beat the 338 for elk moose etc.

 

[SJB358]

Also, a 7RM would probably be just about as good as a .338WM on deer or elk.

Jason, I also have a 338 Win Mag and a 7RM and 7WSM. While, I love the 7mm's a whole lot, if your comparing it's use on elk and such, the 338 really has an edge, with all else being equal. Compare energy numbers to a 225 AB at 2850 to a 160 AB at 3000 out of your 7mm. It isn't all about the numbers, but that extra energy doesn't go unused on heavy hoofed animals.

I really like the 338's and 35 calibers for heavier than deer hunting. Meaning, they are almost always my first choice for elk and would be also when tough hunting and a tough shot might need to be taken.

Since you already have dies and such for the 338, you could have your new barrel set up for your mag box so you don't have to worry about seating them out so far. My rifle is limited even further than your Savage, but it shoots fine with great speed as well. 338 Win Mag is a pretty versatile cartridge. While it is heavy for deer, it doesn't rip deer in half or make them do backflips at all.

 

[338winmag]

I have both and I am keeping both. I specifically chose the latter rifle (7mm RM) to fulfill what I like to believe the full spectrum of hunting rifles for my gun safe. Yup there are other calibers along with the short mag non belted calibers, I just feel these two are my keepers.

Regarding the long throat. I just reloaded for a friends Kimber 300 Win Mag. It has the same issue but with the 300 win mag short neck on the brass, it did not make much difference for any relaoding options. I use pretty much standard OAL and working with powder loads have an excellent consistent 3/4" @ 100 yd. (It shot even better with the owner - go figure and he & I were both happy) 3.342 - Base to Meplat\2.746 - Base to Ogive - .159 off LANS)

With the 338 Win Mag, the inability to load on or close to the LANS might make a difference but even though I can load on the LANS with mine and my magazine also allows for such, I actually load .031 off the lands for consistent 5/8" or less groups @200 yds. :wink: Only standard text book velocity with the NABs @ approx 2780 fps but i am very happy.

Both of my Weatherbys have sporter barrels so they are thin and heat up quickly but I have not seen any real issue with these thin barrels except long time testing\barrel cooling at the range when working up loads.

Keep them both and work on getting great load recipes for each. You won't be disappointed in keeping them. H4831sc for the 338WM and RL22 for the 7mm RM. :wink:

Scotty's comments above make a lot of sense too!!

338winmag

 

[DrMike]

Jason,

You've received some sound advice. If you choose to "fix" the 338WM, you're just spending money without a clear purpose. I'd keep both rifles, especially since you're set up to hand load for either. Loading to the lands can be nice, but it is not the panacea that some imagine. There are other ways to improve accuracy that would need to be explored first.

 

[Guy Miner]

About all the advice I can give on your rifle dilemma is to say that a few good rifles is somehow more appealing to me than a large collection of mediocre rifles. Think about what your needs & wants are, and tailor your rifle collection to meet that, even if it means scrapping everything you've got and starting over. One or two big game rifles will actually serve a man well. Most of us just like to mess around and try this one and that one, and on it goes... Guilty here in recent years... :grin:

Re the two cartridges, 7mm Rem mag & .338 Win mag... Same base case, just a bigger bullet in the .338 Win. Much bigger.

I'm not much of an elk hunter, I just haven't made it a real priority, so I'd tend to go with the 7. It is a fine cartridge capable on anything in North America, relatively easy to shoot, and excellent at mid - long ranges, even in the wind. Well loaded, figure on:
140's @ 3200 fps
160's @ 3,000 fps
175's @ 2900 fps

A comparison with the .30-06 reveals some surprisingly close powder charges and velocity too. No wonder many find the recoil of the 7mm mag so tolerable. I've always thought it was about at the upper end of cartridges I could shoot truly well.

The .338 Win mag... That's a hidden treasure. Often overlooked, it's simply capable as all get out. I don't own one and never have, but I've always been impressed with how well it works, on pretty much anything. If I was more of an elk hunter, or if I had frequent opportunity to take on moose or big bears, I'd have a .338 Win mag for sure.

FWIW, Guy

 

[BK]

Since everybody here is offering sensible advice (even Scotty... I can't believe I'm going to beat him to the punch with this one) I'd say have a .358 Norma barrel made up to fit your action. That's the beauty of Savage actions, outside of a barrel nut wrench and headspace gauge, all you need to swap barrels is a new tube.

 

[Guest]

Only you can decide whether or not you want a 338, obviously, but there are good reasons to keep it, and good reasons to change it out. If I were faced with the dilemma you have, I'd consider a couple of things. First, do I like the way the rifle handles and shoots? If so, everything else is suddenly cosmetics and vanity. Can you live with the screws in place of the old sights? Maybe, maybe not. It's all you. Of course, you could always put the sights back on and use some sort of QR scope setup, giving yourself a different option when you go into heavy timber, if you'd like. Or you could swap the barrel out to a smooth finished .338, or any other chambering. It's all about what you want, and how you like to shoot and hunt.

I differ from Guy a bit, in that I like to have rifles with a purpose, and while I know that I could trim my meager collection down to two or three and be fine, I prefer to have woods rifles and open field rifles and in between rifles, just because it makes life interesting. I am not one of those guys who has umpteen rifles, though...yet. I doubt I ever will, but I do like to have them, and I enjoy shooting all sorts of different stuff, so I'll likely get more before I'm gone.

On the magazine length/distance to the lands issue, I believe you're worrying over nothing. Start at a length that will feed reliably from your magazine without battering the tips, and work back from there. You'll find a sweet spot that puts the holes as close to one another as that rifle and shooter are capable. Heck, in my Weatherby magnums, you can't get the bullet to touch the lands and stay in the case, for the most part. Maybe with the 200s in the 300Wby, but even the 150gr in the 270Wby is seated out long and still a good ways from the lands. And yet, it will print under .5" for three shots at 100yds on command, and will print under .277" (sub-caliber) often enough to be interesting and impress folks at the range. Don't worry about the lands, other than to be sure you're not jamming the bullet into them. You'll find accuracy if you look for it, at a reliable feeding length.

Or, change it all out if you like. It's your choice, and there's no wrong answer!

Oh, and Doc, just for you: Sed melius est quam non oportet et opus non erit.

 

[AzDak42]

Sane and sound advice from our fellow posters. We seem to have the logic angle covered. So let me go the other way.

In the last few months, I've had more fun tinkering around with an old 700 7mm RM that was restocked into a B&C Alaskan, than I can put into words. I don't know why, but reloading and shooting this cartridge is just a hoot. Recoil, especially after the 35 Whelen is almost trivial.

I seriously think I goofed up when I went with a Nosler 48 in 7mm08, as I'm having remorse at not having bumped it up to a 7mm RM. I've had good success now with a couple of powders and it shoots bullets from 140 to 175 extremely well.

So to sum up my emotional rather than logical post, the 7mm RM is just sexy. If I didn't have a mid bore, I'd say keep the 338, but man, you just have to love the 7mm RM. There is a reason it's been so popular.

 

[SJB358]

Since everybody here is offering sensible advice (even Scotty... I can't believe I'm going to beat him to the punch with this one) I'd say have a .358 Norma barrel made up to fit your action. That's the beauty of Savage actions, outside of a barrel nut wrench and headspace gauge, all you need to swap barrels is a new tube.

I have to keep it inside sometimes, but yeah, the 358 Norma would change it up and give you a GREAT reason to get a decently priced barrel, that you want and not have to modify a thing with your current rifle.

 

[JD338]

Jason,

With a 7mm RM and a 338 WM, you are covered for most anything you would ever want to hunt.
The 338 WM is also a very impressive all around gun from mice to moose. A 210 gr PT works well on deer as well as the heavy lifting. You can also load up the 250 gr AB or 300 gr AB and have an impressive long range rifle.
Do not worry about the free bore, so long as it shoots.

JD338

 

[jmad_81]

Those two are two choices are both great. I could hunt anything I wanted in the US with either. I own a 280 AI (basically a 7RM), and a 338 WM. Both work very well. I know a lot of people that shoot 7RM for everything, and for a long ways. More than anything its about good bullets and good shot placement.

I think that you have a perfect combo. The 7RM is better suited for deer, but is a very fine choice for a back up for elk. The 338WM is a very good elk gun, and I don't know to many deer that will walk away from a good hit with a 338 WM. I would use the one to back up the other.

 

[jason miller]

Jason,

With a 7mm RM and a 338 WM, you are covered for most anything you would ever want to hunt.
The 338 WM is also a very impressive all around gun from mice to moose. A 210 gr PT works well on deer as well as the heavy lifting. You can also load up the 250 gr AB or 300 gr AB and have an impressive long range rifle.
Do not worry about the free bore, so long as it shoots.

JD338

Can't you only get 2450 fps or so out of a 300 grain bullet in the WM? I have run the numbers in the past, and the more aerodynamic 250's at 2700-2750 are within an inch or two of the 300's @ 2450 in regards to windage, and kill them in drop. I think I only ran them to 800 yards, but that's probably a lot further than I'd ever shoot at anything with the .338 anyway...

And it seems like all you guys can see the pro's to both options, as well. I think I might try to have the last 1" taken off the factory barrel. It tapers a LOT in that last 1", so I would gain stiffness from both the length reduction and losing the thinnest part of the barrel. It would also get rid of one of those filled screw holes that drives me nuts.

Anybody have any recommendations on maybe epoxying small strips of metal into the magazine well to hold cartridges back away from the front by contacting the shoulders of the cartridges? I have heard of someone doing that a long time ago, but don't remember the details too well.

 

[meatmachineman]

Now this is just me spitballin here, but if it were me, I'd leave everything as is. Both seem to shoot good. the 7mm is amazing. The 338 is equally amazing and they each fill a niche that the other might fall a little short in. Then take the money you saved and take a look at your optics. Are they up to par on those fine rifles? If so, then maybe fill a void somewhere else in the collection. Or if nothing else, take you better half out to a nice dinner to keep her buttered up for next time a gun related purchase is "needed" :grin:

Like was said earlier... you need to be happy with what you're doing, but I know if it were me, I'd be inclined not to fix what appears not to be actually broken.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Or you can shoot the AccuBond type bullets with the plastic tips and not worry about the magazine damage.

My first serious big game rifle was a 7mm Rem Mag purchased in 1963, the first one that I ever laid eyes on. It let me down on an elk in 1968 (actually a bullet failure) and I bought a .338 Win Mag and never looked back. Until now, when I only own a .338 Federal but I have a 9.3x74R to fill the hole left by selling my .340 Weatherby.

My reflection on buying the .338 was that I had to learn how to hold it and shoot it properly and accurately first, as I had never shot anything bigger than my 7mm mag back then, to manage that much recoil. Once that was accomplished, I really liked the .338 WM for elk and have owned a .338 WM or a .340 Weatherby since.

I could most likely and truly handle all of my North American hunting needs with my 7mm Mag and a .338WM.

 

[jason miller]

The accubonds are the ones that have had the worst damage to the tips so far.

I have considered finding a load for and sticking with regular, non-tipped TSX's. I don't think they would be likely to be deformed under recoil. And I guess ballistic coefficients probably aren't all that important for the first 400 yards or so anyway...

 

[Guy Miner]

Thirty years ago, when I was a young Marine overseas, dreaming of coming home to hunt "out west" Bill Steiger was kind enough to correspond with me a bit. Remember this was pre-internet... He actually read my hand-scrawled letter and replied the same way. Wish I'd kept his letter.

At that time my only rifle was a 6mm Remington, though I could borrow Dad's M1917 .30-06 anytime I wanted. It still had just iron sights and a 26" barrel and a stock that weighed about 5 pounds alone!

I'd been contemplating a new 7mm Rem mag for all my hunting, and he advised me to get the 7mm mag for mule deer and save up for a .338 for an elk rifle. Pretty sound advice I'd think, though I did take my big bull with a 7mm Rem mag and a single Nosler Partition.

Bill Steiger was the fellow who came up with the famous Bitterroot Bonded Core bullets and is reported to have known a thing or two about hunting, rifles and bullets.

I still think that 7mm mag & .338 mag is a great combo. Not too different from JD338's combo of a .280 AI and his .338 Rem Ultra Mag for that matter...

Guy

 

[jmad_81]

The accubonds are the ones that have had the worst damage to the tips so far.

I have considered finding a load for and sticking with regular, non-tipped TSX's. I don't think they would be likely to be deformed under recoil. And I guess ballistic coefficients probably aren't all that important for the first 400 yards or so anyway...

If 400 yards is all your doing the TSX is fine. RL-19 some place between 73 and 74 gr should get shooting decent groups. My 338 WM liked 73.5 gr and my buddies like 74. Both shot five shot groups under an inch. The TSX will kill well, no question about it. But I like the sleekness of the 225 AB better. I also think that the AB "delivers" more energy into the animal, not just blow right through it.