Crimp Question

[Vince]

I'm having heck getting a load that my 25-06 likes.

I get a load that shows potential and it fizzes out, only to have to start all over again trying to find something that will give me the accuracy I demand. Fizz being defined as not living up to it's potential.


I've been using the Lee Factory Crimp Die and considering going with an RCBS Die which would give me the crimping function at the same time I'm seating the bullet. I just need enough of a crimp to hold the bullet in the magazine under recoil. I'm shooting a 25-06 Winchester Model 70.

Anybody notice a change in the accuracy based on the crimp? I've got the bullet, powder, and primers. I just need to find something that will tie it all together and thinking maybe the crimp might be the final "tweak".

Thoughts?

 

[wisconsinteacher]

I would try it without a crimp. I do not crimp any of my rounds other than handgun. I shoot my .338WM out of a rifle like yours and have no issues.

 

[OU812]

What is the bullet, primer and powder you are using? What is you accuracy demands? There is a very good thread on the 25/06 with what looks like very good speed and accuracy might look it over. I guess I'm not sure what you mean about a load showing potential then fizzes out? If they show potential at least one of them should come around to your expectations with some slight tweeking.

As for your original question about crimping? I have never crimped any round o load for including 338 Lapua, and 338-378 Weatherby. Like WT said I would try NOT crimping and see what happens.


Bill

 

[Guy Miner]

As others stated, there is no need to crimp your .25-06 cartridges. Consistent neck tension is all you need. I crimp revolver loads, and my .30-30 lever action rifle loads, but that's it.

Try working up to 52 or 53 grains of H4350 with a good 100 gr bullet. Federal 210 match primers. New cases, trimmed and sized. Should be good for 3250 - 3350 fps with excellent accuracy. It's a load that has been proven in many .25-06 rifles.

For the 115's, go with a slower burning powder like Reloader 22 or Retumbo.

H4831 and the 100 gr Sierra Gameking produced the most accurate .25-06 loads I've ever made.

Just somewhere to start... Oh, typically I just neck size, but full length sizing works well too. Lose the crimp die... :grin:

Regards, Guy

 

[DrMike]

You do not need to crimp a bottle-neck cartridge. I do so on a few select cartridges, but only because I'm obsessive. The issue of crimping occasions hours of controversy. Long-story short, it is a personal decision, but you won't really justify it on the basis of "need."

 

[jimbires]

I crimp for handgun and for tube magazine rifles .
I tried to scan a little info from my Lyman book . it's not good but maybe you can make it out . it shows how crimping can cause the neck to loosen on the bullet . Jim

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m257 ... /crimp.jpg

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Yes, skip the crimp.
Tell us more about what happening with your 25.06. I'm sure someone here can help.

 

[Gm weatherby man]

I agree with Mike, it is a personal choice, I crimp everthing but the e-tips for obvious reasons , all loaded are 1 " or better . I must admit I doesn't worry about achieving better than that, but have had my share of clover leaf groups in my time. Play with all suggestions and make up your own mind as what's suits you, that is my advice to you. To me I rather use the extra money having sausage made up of what I shoot. Lol

 

[JD338]

I have loaded for several cartridges over the past 37 years and the only ones that get crimped are 45-70 and 44 Rem Mag.

JD338

 

[Vince]

Thanks all.
This is the first rifle caliber I've loaded for and it's giving me fits. I'll try not crimping today and go to the range tomorrow.

 

[SJB358]

Vince, what loads are you trying to run? Just wondering as it just might not be a combo your rifle likes? Also, is the rifle bedded? Floated? Trigger decent?

 

[PJGunner]

The only rifle cartridge I somtimes crimp is the 30-30 and then only when shooting cast bullets.
Paul B.

 

[Guy Miner]

How does the rifle shoot with factory ammo? Decent accuracy?

There are a lot of factors that play into rifle accuracy - not just the ammo. A good solid rest helps. A good scope, well mounted, helps. Free floating the barrel usually helps. It may or may not need to be glass bedded, but at least the action screws need to be nicely torqued. The barrel may shoot better if it has had a few fouling shots fired through it. Most sporter weight barrels don't respond well to long strings of fire and getting hot. The trigger should release cleanly, with little overtravel and a light letoff.

Watch the wind - even at 100 yards a mild crosswind can mess up an otherwise good group.

Watch your technique. If your group opens vertically, some shots high, some shots low, you may need to pay more attention to your breathing. If the shots are spreading out horizontally, you may be putting too much effort into the trigger pull, or muscling the rifle with your shoulder. Try to minimize your own influence on the rifle, usually the less we do while shooting it, the better. No squirming, no fidgiting. Make everything as consistent as possible. Shoot when you're at the same point in your breathing cycle. Gently press that trigger straight to the rear. No booger flicking. Get the crosshairs in exactly the same spot time after time - and no - they don't have to be in the center of the target for accuracy testing... Consider lining up the crosshairs with a square corner on the target...

There's a bunch of stuff that it could be, other than the quality of your handloads. If you're going to try to improve your loads - here's a few basic steps:

1. Make sure you have all the same, quality components. Prep all the brass the same. Same overall length, sized the same, etc...

2. Concentrate on seating the bullet as straight as possible. That's one of the biggest advantages of "match" grade loading dies - they minimize bullet runout.

3. Consider picking an "accuracy load" from the Nosler or Sierra manual - those are loads that typically produce excellent accuracy from a wide variety of rifles. Often very "basic" bullets like a Sierra Gameking or a Nosler Ballistic Tip will produce very good accuracy.

I hope your efforts are met with excellent success!

Regards, Guy

 

[FOTIS]

I crimp revolvers and levers only

 

[Oldtrader3]

What Fotis said +1. I have never been able to get the same level of consistancy with crimped rounds as with just seated CF rifle ammo.

 

[Vince]

I'm trying to run a Hornady 117 Grain SST and a Nosler 100 Grain Ballistic Tip using IMR 4350.

This is the fastest burning powder I've used and is giving me the best results, which are not acceptable, by the way. I'll settle for 1" at 100 Yards but would prefer 0.75" at a minimum. I had a couple of loads show potential when crimped and I'm going to try uncrimped in the morning. I've trickled each powder charge and have an exact COAL.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I had good luck with IMR 7828 SSC with the Partition 120 gr in my Model 70, .25-06. The load was sub MOA and was 55.0 grains with a BR2 primer.

With the 100 grain Partition, I used IMR 4350, 52.5 grains, BR2 primer and W-W cases for sub MOA groups. I killed a few desert mule deer with the 120 grain Partition at 350 or less yards and it worked fine.

Both were hot loads and should be worked up to.

 

[SJB358]

I'm trying to run a Hornady 117 Grain SST and a Nosler 100 Grain Ballistic Tip using IMR 4350.

This is the fastest burning powder I've used and is giving me the best results, which are not acceptable, by the way. I'll settle for 1" at 100 Yards but would prefer 0.75" at a minimum. I had a couple of loads show potential when crimped and I'm going to try uncrimped in the morning. I've trickled each powder charge and have an exact COAL.

Here is a look at some others for the 100 BT. I would give RL22 a try if you haven't as well. Seems like there is a great thread on here about the results of another shooter using RL22 and 100 BT's. I know I am going to give it a shot here shortly.

Cartridge : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet : .257, 100, Nosler BalTip 25100
Useable Case Capaci: 61.285 grain H2O = 3.979 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch = 82.55 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

154 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP 102.4 60.4 3.91 3347 99.2 63000 15176 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 110.0 61.8 4.01 3337 100.0 62026 14685 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 104.2 60.1 3.90 3337 96.5 63000 15355 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 106.4 64.3 4.17 3331 97.5 63000 15090 1.002 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 106.8 64.4 4.17 3330 97.5 63000 15076 1.002 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 106.6 64.3 4.17 3329 97.6 63000 15058 1.002 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 108.7 59.7 3.87 3328 97.0 63000 14930 0.997 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 102.8 59.7 3.87 3328 97.0 63000 14930 0.997 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 104.3 62.7 4.06 3318 95.0 63000 15322 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 104.5 59.7 3.87 3316 98.2 63000 14868 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 104.5 59.7 3.87 3316 98.2 63000 14868 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 104.5 59.7 3.87 3316 98.2 63000 14868 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 107.3 59.9 3.88 3313 98.1 63000 14869 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 103.8 59.3 3.84 3312 96.8 63000 14751 0.995 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 107.5 63.0 4.09 3296 97.1 63000 14530 0.995 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 100.8 56.6 3.67 3282 98.0 63000 14135 0.999 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 105.7 59.2 3.84 3280 96.4 63000 14433 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 91.5 54.7 3.54 3277 99.2 63000 13963 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 91.5 54.7 3.54 3277 99.2 63000 13963 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 101.3 57.2 3.71 3276 98.1 63000 14196 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 96.8 56.5 3.66 3275 99.6 63000 13889 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 98.5 55.3 3.59 3271 100.0 63000 13016 1.022 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 102.0 57.6 3.73 3269 98.0 63000 14087 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation 107.3 61.8 4.01 3266 94.7 63000 14371 1.000 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 96.5 53.9 3.49 3261 100.0 63000 13416 1.017 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 96.5 53.9 3.49 3261 100.0 63000 13412 1.017 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 93.7 54.1 3.51 3259 100.0 63000 13543 1.021 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 100.0 54.0 3.50 3255 100.0 63000 13415 1.034 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 99.3 56.1 3.63 3255 97.8 63000 13850 1.006 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 96.1 56.1 3.63 3255 97.8 63000 13850 1.006 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 99.3 56.1 3.63 3255 97.8 63000 13850 1.006 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 102.4 58.5 3.79 3246 96.1 63000 13888 1.004 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 106.5 58.5 3.79 3246 96.1 63000 13888 1.004 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 90.1 52.6 3.41 3244 100.0 63000 12947 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 90.2 52.6 3.41 3243 100.0 63000 12928 1.014 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 101.2 54.7 3.55 3240 100.0 63000 13133 1.025 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 110.0 62.1 4.03 3240 96.4 57005 15073 1.063 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder 33 110.0 68.3 4.43 3238 91.7 56615 15728 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 101.4 57.9 3.75 3237 98.8 63000 13634 1.025 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N570 110.0 65.5 4.25 3236 90.4 55561 15882 1.067 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 96.9 55.6 3.60 3233 99.0 63000 13438 1.017 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 100.1 55.8 3.61 3225 97.0 63000 13490 1.006 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 99.8 59.4 3.85 3223 98.0 63000 13443 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT ~approximation 91.3 52.0 3.37 3222 99.4 63000 12913 0.995 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 99.0 54.1 3.51 3222 100.0 63000 12409 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 96.2 53.8 3.48 3221 99.3 63000 13267 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 98.9 54.6 3.54 3220 98.8 63000 13196 1.008 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 97.0 54.5 3.53 3220 98.8 63000 13177 1.008 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 106.7 59.6 3.86 3219 98.5 63000 13277 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 91.5 51.1 3.31 3207 100.0 63000 12437 1.032 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S071 110.0 58.8 3.81 3206 99.5 61905 13286 1.048 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 110.0 58.8 3.81 3206 99.5 61905 13286 1.048 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 94.1 52.2 3.38 3205 98.8 63000 13053 1.014 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 91.8 50.7 3.29 3205 100.0 63000 12433 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 91.2 52.2 3.38 3204 98.8 63000 13043 1.014 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 106.8 57.8 3.75 3203 96.9 63000 13212 1.010 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 90.6 49.7 3.22 3202 100.0 63000 12403 1.004 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 91.0 49.7 3.22 3202 100.0 63000 12403 1.004 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 95.2 52.6 3.41 3202 99.7 63000 12829 1.021 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT ~approximation 92.9 52.2 3.38 3198 99.7 63000 12596 1.005 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 91.4 48.8 3.16 3196 100.0 63000 12221 1.008 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 110.0 61.5 3.98 3183 95.7 56618 14122 1.046 ! Near Maximum !

Here is the same look for 117 SST

Cartridge : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet : .257, 117, Hornady SST InterLock 25522
Useable Case Capaci: 60.162 grain H2O = 3.906 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.250 inch = 82.55 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

166 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570 110.0 64.3 4.17 3172 94.7 62227 16728 1.075 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder 33 109.8 66.9 4.34 3168 95.7 63000 16495 1.071 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 107.3 59.2 3.83 3140 100.0 63000 14474 1.069 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 99.3 57.5 3.73 3135 99.8 63000 15033 1.078 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 109.5 60.7 3.93 3135 98.8 63000 15412 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 103.6 61.5 3.98 3134 98.8 63000 15141 1.066 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 103.9 61.5 3.99 3133 98.8 63000 15127 1.066 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 103.8 61.4 3.98 3132 98.9 63000 15103 1.066 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 101.2 57.3 3.71 3132 98.0 63000 15379 1.072 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 105.7 57.0 3.69 3126 98.4 63000 14944 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 100.0 57.0 3.69 3126 98.4 63000 14944 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 101.4 59.8 3.87 3119 96.7 63000 15432 1.080 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 101.0 56.6 3.67 3112 98.3 63000 14788 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 101.4 56.9 3.68 3109 99.2 63000 14809 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 101.4 56.9 3.68 3109 99.2 63000 14809 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 101.4 56.9 3.68 3109 99.2 63000 14809 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 104.2 57.1 3.70 3107 99.1 63000 14821 1.078 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 104.8 60.3 3.91 3106 98.6 63000 14604 1.058 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 110.0 60.3 3.91 3096 98.5 62535 14541 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 102.7 56.5 3.66 3079 97.9 63000 14462 1.076 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation 104.6 59.2 3.83 3075 96.5 63000 14530 1.062 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 97.9 54.0 3.50 3075 99.1 63000 14077 1.064 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 98.4 54.6 3.54 3071 99.1 63000 14140 1.071 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 99.2 55.0 3.56 3064 99.1 63000 14038 1.072 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 94.0 53.8 3.49 3063 100.0 63000 13694 1.078 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 93.5 53.5 3.47 3051 99.0 63000 13803 1.070 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 96.5 53.5 3.47 3051 99.0 63000 13803 1.070 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 96.5 53.5 3.47 3051 99.0 63000 13803 1.070 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 99.7 55.9 3.62 3048 97.7 63000 13943 1.068 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 103.7 55.9 3.62 3048 97.7 63000 13943 1.068 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 95.4 52.6 3.41 3046 100.0 63000 12750 1.090 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 93.6 51.4 3.33 3044 100.0 63000 13141 1.083 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 93.6 51.4 3.33 3044 100.0 63000 13137 1.083 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 91.0 51.6 3.34 3044 100.0 63000 13278 1.086 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 96.9 51.4 3.33 3038 100.0 63000 13120 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo 110.0 61.3 3.97 3035 99.6 54761 15037 1.135
Somchem S385 98.6 55.3 3.58 3033 99.6 63000 13532 1.090 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 94.2 53.0 3.44 3027 99.7 63000 13311 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 98.2 52.1 3.38 3025 100.0 63000 12864 1.091 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 97.4 53.3 3.45 3024 98.3 63000 13487 1.070 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2218 110.0 65.0 4.21 3024 91.8 55173 16257 1.124
Winchester Supreme 780 97.1 56.8 3.68 3024 99.1 63000 13432 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 103.8 56.9 3.69 3018 99.4 63000 13219 1.081 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 107.4 56.3 3.65 3016 100.0 63000 13146 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S071 107.4 56.3 3.65 3016 100.0 63000 13146 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 96.2 52.2 3.38 3015 99.6 63000 13089 1.072 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 94.4 52.1 3.37 3015 99.6 63000 13063 1.072 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 93.5 51.3 3.32 3014 99.8 63000 13104 1.087 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 104.0 55.3 3.58 3006 98.2 63000 13232 1.073 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 96.1 51.5 3.34 3002 100.0 63000 12157 1.083 ! Near Maximum !

 

[Vince]

Got two loads that show promise but need to shoot them again to test for repeatability.

Nosler 100 BT with IMR 4350 gave me a 0.891" group for three shots with a dirty barrel and Hornady 87 grain SP gave me a three shot group, first three fired, of 0.589". I may need to vary the seating depth by about 0.005" to see if I can get it tighter but both of these loads has me excited. :grin:

 

[Guy Miner]

Nice! Either one of those will easily work in the hunting fields!

Good work.