Elk rifle musings and 30-06 168 TTSX experience

[EastTNHunter]

Some of you may remember my recent post about my 338, which I bought for an upcoming "hunt of a lifetime" with my dad next fall. I was perfectly content with my 30-06 until I was convinced by a few that I should get a magnum for that possibility of needing extra oomph for a long range or quartering-to shoulder shot. I bought the Tikka and love the feel and fit of the gun, but still doubt if I really need this uber-thumper. I got to punching in some of my loads into the Hornady ballistics calculator the other evening and this is what I found:

30-06 180 NAB 2750 fps mv, superb accuracy, 100yd energy 2644, 400yd energy 1727, 3" high at 100yd, 18" low at 400yd

30-06 165 NAB 2950 fps mv, superb accuracy, 100yd energy 2776, 400yd energy 1787, 3" high at 100yd, 15.5" low at 400yd

338WM 180 NAB 3000 fps mv, acceptable accuracy, 100yd energy 3119, 400yd energy 1771, 3" high at 100yd, 16" low at 400yd

338WM 200NAB/210TSX 2900 fps mv, acceptable accuracy, 100yd energy 3568, 400yd energy 2000, 3" high at 100yd, 17" low at 400yd

As you can see, the 165 actually outperforms the 180 in 30-06 due to the extra 200fps mv, and by the numbers it really doesn't lag too far behind the 338 200/210gr loads at 400yd, with slightly flatter trajectory. I'm not a believer in energy from a bullet killing an animal, but I do believe that it can represent the ability to drive said bullet into and through the vitals for effective tissue disruption and bleeding. The energy numbers are all more than sufficient for elk within this self-imposed 400yd range. My only real concern with the 165NAB is that quartering-to shoulder shot and if the bullet will retain enough mass to carry it through, so I'm going to try to get similar velocities and accuracy with a 168TTSX, which carries a very similar BC.

This 30-06 is silly accurate and I have a great deal of confidence in it, and don't really want to get beat up by the light 338 if it doesn't offer a truly sizable advantage. Have any of you had any luck breaking 2900fps with the 168TTSX in 30-06 with I4350 or RL17, or would you just stick with the 165NABs?

Thoughts? Would this be better suited for the hunting section?

 

[Guy Miner]

Not exactly what you're asking about, but in December I shot a cow elk through the shoulder at 338 yards. Used my 30-06 with the 165 gr Ballistic Tip at a little over 2900 fps. That was a very quick kill. I imagine that an AccuBond, Partition, E-Tip or other premium bullet would have done even better.

I like that fast combo of the 165 at about 2900 fps from a good shooting .30-06 rifle!

Guy

 

[hereinaz]

My buddies 13 year old son took an elk at 500 yards with a 30 ought 6.

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[c. schutte]

It's my opinion that bigger is better as long as you can put the bullet where it needs to go. The difference between the .338 and 30-06 is more than what is found on an energy chart. A Bigger surface area distributes more energy in a faster fashion, more bullet weight, deeper penetration maybe? In any event it will transfer more energy to the elk and he will appreciate the difference.

Bullets might mean more than cartridge? A well placed shot with the right bullet trumps all.

It's a matter of degrees or percentages. At 200 yards standing broadside there might not be any real appreciable difference between the two. At 300 yards with an angling shot it might be all the difference.

For me the larger caliber/cartridges mean an advantage under certain conditions. I favor the larger caliber and heavier bullet but, that is just me. In the hands of a good marksman the 30-06 is more than able. Just ask Guy's grizzly! :>)

 

[DrMike]

Can't imagine you'd go terribly wrong with either cartridge. I'd be comfortable with the 30-06 if I shot it well and felt confident in my own handling. If they are equal in accuracy and in your own comfort shooting them, then the heavier bullet with the larger frontal area is always a good choice. Nevertheless, the 30-06 loaded with a premium bullet that is stepping out there will git 'er done.

 

[elkhunternm]

Use the .30/06 and go forth and kill a bull elk.

 

[joelkdouglas]

I don't have any experience with TTSXs and elk, but I know the 165 AB works. Here are a couple of threads, one detailing the hunt from a couple years ago, one detailing the bullet's performance.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31969&hilit=wyoming+2015

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=31923

 

[salmonchaser]

I've killed quite a few elk with an 06. I would guess if you could accurately count the numbers it would be tough to beat the old war horse on elk. My opinion matches yours as does my experience. The 338 does have an advantage over the 06 when you have those pesky angles.
My younger brother has killed elk almost every year for 40 years with the 06 I gave him. It will work.


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[salmonchaser]

To clarify, I prefer my 338 Jarrett, 250 grain accubonds at 2950 are danged effective.


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[PJGunner]

"My only real concern with the 165NAB is that quartering-to shoulder shot and if the bullet will retain enough mass to carry it through,"

Well, if an example of one is any help I shot a cow elk two years ago with a 30-06 and the 165 Nosler AccuBond. Load was doing about 2880 FPS at the muzzle with atop load of W760, Winchester brass and Winchester WLR primer. Temperature according to the thermometer in the truck was +6*F. The bullet hit right at the short ribs and AFAIK was buried in the elk's left lung with was like Jello. The elk staggered about 20, maybe 30 feet and collapsed. She required a finisher with the guide's handgun.
Would I use that combo again? Yes. Normally my elk rifle is a custom Mauser in .35 Whelen and the 30-06 mentioned is a custom Mauser brought along as a back up rifle. I just figured I'd use it instead of the Whelen on the first day of that hunt. Elk I've shot with the Whelen go absolutely nowhere. Never have had to use a blood trail with that one. :mrgreen:
Seriously, put that 165 NAB in the right place and sharpen your knife.
Paul B.

 

[OU812]

06 stoked with 165 NP, AB or Barnes will kill elk make no mistake about it. I've killed several elk with an 06 mostly with a 180 of sorts. I have since moved on caliber wise for elk not because the 06 failed me or that elk have gotten tougher to kill but purely to use something different. I will say from what I have seen over the years once you get to 338 and up the elk do react different to the impact with all shot placement being equal. That being said I currently don't own a 338 in any flavor, I use a 300 rum, for now. :lol:

 

[c. schutte]

Scotty has been all over this for the last few years and I am confident he is right; that is the bullet has about as much to do with putting elk on the deck as caliber or cartridge.

I've only taken a couple bulls and even with that limited experience I have seen the difference between bullets in similar cartridges. My bulls were taken with a 300 WM and the 180 grain TSX. One bull down quickly and the other took some more convincing. To the tune of about 4 extra shots! My buddy on the other hand was shooting a 300 wby with 180 grain spire points.

The differences I noticed between our two similar cartridges was this, the tsx passed through on both bulls (even at over 400 yards on the first). The interior damage was not as great and the animal did not expire as quickly. My buddies bulls did give it up more quickly (within a few steps or right were they stood) with the spire points, no exit so all the energy was deposited within the animal.

After witnessing his shots along with my own I was left with the impression that the two bullets did have a noticeable difference. Unfortunately none were recovered.

Based on that and listening to those who have far greater experience, using a cartridge that is "more than enough" for elk is the starting point, a deep penetrating bullet that expands to 2x or greater is the difference maker while shot placement trumps all.

If I felt more comfortable with a 30-06 than a light weight .338 WM that kicked the snot of me then I would go with the 06 but, using a 180 to 200 grain bullet like the PT or AB. The .338 using the same two bullets of 225 grains would perform better if shot placement was as consistent. I'd let that be the deciding factor.

One thing I learned years ago was that energy charts are nothing to hang your hat on.

 

[thatguySHM]

Do you have experience with magnum rifles? What is acceptable vs superb accuracy?

I live in moose land, no elk for thousand miles at the least, and I've been lucky enough to be on one tag, used my 30-06 with 200gr Accubonds. My father was the main tag holder and he used his 338 WM. Shot was at 217 yards, I had the kill shot through the heart, recovered the bullet under the fair side hide. His was a complete pass through, just not great shot placement due to too high powered scope being turned all the way up in error. Shot was broadside, devil cow moose dressed at 666lbs, good sized animal. No load dev went into the 06 load, picked Sierra's most accurate and went hunting. Now that was over 10 years ago and I was between deployments to Iraq, but if the same thing happened today, I'm not sure I'd go with that pairing. I only say that because I'm older and like to think smarter, so I'd go with a faster, lighter weight AB. On the right track there. Bullet performed perfectly, mushroomed, knocked her over sideways and transferred all the energy, but she still got up and moved, without the use of her heart.

I believe wholely in the AB, took a beautiful 10 pt whitetail with a 180gr 338 Federal this past year, he still ran a bit. That's the nature of the beast with Maine game, they are tough.

The question about magnum rifles is more so in load development. I use a PAST shooting pad, I've had shoulder surgery but even before that I used it to ensure there was no recoil sensitivity causing a slight flinch. You sure don't feel that recoil in the field so I don't want to feel it when I test loads. My groups tightened up phenomenally years ago when I learned to shoot magnums on the bench properly. You cannot let a light weight magnum free recoil off bags at all. If shooting with a bipod, you need to have half an inch of soft towel or something similar under the legs on a hard bench, and need to hold with both hands, pulling firmly back into you to control that recoil.

I apologize if I'm off base, I just know that helped ME tremendously with getting accurate groups from a big gun on a bench.

Best of luck, I'm extremely envious that you get to go after one of those big guys.

SHM

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[69gto]

I am fortunate to live in a state with lots of elk and have been killing them with rifles in 270win to 378 WBY for 55years and have seen dozens of others killed by other hunters. What I have observed is there is little difference from 270 to 30 cal,but from 338 and on up the elk die a lot quicker with the same shot placement, plus if you are on a trophy elk that took 20 years to draw a tag why take a chance? Also a 800 to 1000 lb bull usually can take more lead than a 500 lb cow. Just my opinion, worth nothing.

 

[EastTNHunter]

Thank you all for the replies. It definitely gives me something to chew on.

As an update, I took the 338 back to the range yesterday morning with a few "final developed" loads, and was much more encouraged by its accuracy. 3 different loads using 200gr NABs and 210 TSXs gave .7-.85 inch accuracy at 100yd, which is exactly what I wanted the gun to do. One of these loads has now produced 1" or less groups multiple times, something that I have not been able to do with this rifle up to this point. Several times I've shot an MOA group with a load, gotten encouraged, then couldn't duplicate it.

If I can duplicate these results, then I will verify the velocities over a chrono and check their accuracy at 200 and 300 yards before deciding on which one to use. This rifle has been much more persnickety to develop loads for than any other rifle that I've had, and I was really getting discouraged by that, but I really feel more encouraged now and will likely use it for the elk hunt.

I still plan to play with the TTSXs in my 30-06 for another option, but it already shoots the NABs with the loads listed in the OP to a consistent .5 MOA. I'm still going to bring it with me as a backup rifle, or one to change out every other day, regardless, so I may end up carrying both.

The 338 doesn't really hurt my shoulder when I shoot it with the 200-210gr loads, but it raps my middle knuckle pretty well so I often wear a glove. It is bearable to shoot, but not fun at the bench. It is a fine rifle that carries well and has a great natural balance to it.

 

[DrMike]

Your groups are definitely something to give you pride in your form.

 

[salmonchaser]

Well that's half minute of elk any way you look at it! Nice work.


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[OU812]

Those are both excellent looking loads, job well done.

 

[jmm]

I personally like the NAB better than the TTSX. I am also a big fan of the Swift Scirocco and even tougher A-frame. The A-frame can be too tough, except on the largest game. I have had OK results with the TTSX, some easy kills and some long tracking days on deer in which the bullet did not appear to expand. Same thing with African plains game. I have shot over 200 plains game in the past 3 years and probably culled 200 white tails in the past 5 years. I am a big 30-06 fan and use it exclusively for everything. My everyday culling load is the 110 TTSX at 35-3600 fps. It is an absolute lightning bolt for white tail and I have never captured one from any angle. I just got back from Namibia and the 180 Scirocco was the best killer, followed by the A-frame, Norma Oryx, 200 grain Partition and 240 grain Woodleigh. The 168 TTSX, 180 Pro Hunter and Speer Round Nose were last. The TTSX had a failure to expand and a 1 mile track. The Sierra/Speer were effective killers but not great penetration on large game. I have had mediocre experience with the Barnes, with the exception of the 110. Some guys swear by them. I have culled a lot of and seen a lot of elk shot with the plain old 180 Hornady interlock. Killed them all dead with little or no tracking. You just need to be careful with your shot selection and go thru the lungs.

 

[DrMike]

Welcome aboard, jmm. I appreciate your contribution. I know that others appreciate a knowledgeable voice that has familiarity with the bullets commonly used in our hunts. Trust we will see more posts coming under your handle. Again, welcome aboard.