I'm an A-hole I guess! .280 AI recoils more than the 7mm RM.

[taylorce1]

I got a not so nice PM today on another forum for debunking the .280 AI myth, thought I'd bring the discussion over here because it was specific to Nosler's data. This other poster was quoting speeds out of the online Nosler data having the .280 AI besting the 7mm RM in FPS with 140 and 160 grain bullets. He was bragging about how he was going to get all the performance out of his .280 AI he was going to build and have nowhere near the recoil, and powder burnt to get the job done.

Well I'm not a 7mm RM fan of any kind but the whole thing sounded a little fishy to me so I had to check it out before I made the response I did. I just simply asked him to recheck the Nosler online data again, as I told him the load densities are higher in the .280 AI and it was actually burning a couple more grains of powder in most cases than the load data for the 7mm RM. So since he was getting a higher velocity and at higher operating pressures than the 7mm RM as well as burning more powder en an equal weight rifle the .280 AI was going to recoil more, but not enough more that you would see a difference in felt recoil.

I said he was right that the 7mm RM could recoil more but not with the data he was quoting if both rifles weighed the same. Then I went on to say that since he wanted to build a lighter rifle than his 7mm RM M700 BDL he owned that he would probably see about the same amount of recoil but possibly a little sharper as it would recoil faster. I told him that if he was wanting a .280 AI to get away from the recoil of the 7mm RM then he might want to reconsider.

Well anyway he sent me a not so nice PM today refrencing a few different rifle magazines and authors of articles on the .280 AI and how "they couldn't be wrong". Then went on to simply say that the 7mm RM had a 28% larger case capacity, and even though it was using less powder (of differnt types, and burn rates hello!) in the Nosler data that would cause it to recoil more. I'm no physics genius but even I know a larger cylinder builds pressure slower giving it a lower pressure spike and recoil impulse unless more of the space is filled to begin with.

Anyway he basically ended the PM with this comment "STUPID MFING A__HOLES LIKE YOU SHOULD STFU AND QUIT POSTING!" First time I've been attacked by PM like that, I didn't feel like posting a response to him would do anything for me. So I came here to vent a little I guess.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Shooting the same bullet weight...the one with the bigger powder charge (weight, in grains...not percentage), will usually have the most recoil....but these 2 are so close that you also have to look at the velocity generated by the load..."time" becomes a factor (recoil velocity)

Fact is...some 7mmRM loads recoil more than 280AI, and some do not...they overlap each other more often than not.

Felt recoil however is not so easy to quantify, and is different for everybody...but the numbers (math) don't lie...their was a smart fellow some years ago that wrote some pretty simple laws regarding things in motion.

And Noslers data isn't really good for this comparison...the 280AI they used had 2" more barrel than the 7mmRM, makes it hard to compare apples to apples.

The 280AI is a hell of a round...its what the 7mmRM should have always been, IMO. It just didn't come along at the right time to be successful...

 

[DrMike]

There is little response in responding to someone who is incapable of maintain civil discourse. Likely, you were confusing this individual with facts when his mind was already made up. Obviously, if he read it in a magazine somewhere, it is true. It is much the same as if you read it on the Internet, it is true. There is no possibility that he misread the information or has a faulty memory of what he read. Clearly, you are in the wrong and needed to be chastised for daring to deflate his ego.

Bottom line, recoil is a function of powder charge and bullet weight. Given the same weight of rifle and the identical bullet weight, the powder charge will be the final determinate in measured recoil. Felt recoil is a function of stock design and burn time due to powder column, provided the powder charge is also identical.

Oh, and that is the reason I quit spending time at so many other forums. The flaming won't injure me, but it is non-productive.

 

[Greg Nolan]

DrMike nailed it again.
Facts and Experience = knowledge
Objective + Subjective thought = Opinion
Opinion + Emotion = useless discourse :?

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Taylor, He's uncivilized, and wrong.
Screw him.

 

[JD338]

taylorce1

Dealing with someone like that is a waste of time. Nothing you say or do will change his mind set.
I am sure he has a lot more experience than I :wink: when it comes to reloading and more specifically the 280 AI. Be rest assured, he is going down the wrong path and ignoring the warning signs. Nothing you can do with morons like that.

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

DrMike nailed it again.
Facts and Experience = knowledge
Objective + Subjective thought = Opinion
Opinion + Emotion = useless discourse :?

Bingo. I have limited the forums where I hang out for this reason.

 

[Mountain Goat]

I can't wait for him to get his new 280AI built, so I can buy it cheap after he feels the recoil. :lol:

 

[Wondermutt]

Like other have said, I use this site as a source for reloading as it is for the most part kept in order with facts and experiences.

With that, felt recoil varies from person to person. With the rifles I have shot/have, I have the most aggressive or most felt recoil from most to least:

1) Early 70's vintage Ruger 7mm using factory core-lokt ammo
2) early 70's Remington 30-06 - most and load kicks like a mule
3) Model 7 30-06
4) 300 RUM XCR
5) 300 RUM Sendero tied with 6
6) 7mm-08 Weatherby
7) 7mm-08 Savage edge

There are more that fit in the mix, but this is how me and my wife rate the felt recoil of our most commonly shot rifles. I am sure that calculated or actual recoil will be different.

Now, I we were at the range and someone was shooting a 280AI, and after watching his body language, I would want no part of that rifle... and loud, man it is louder than our 300's with brakes. Again, perception may not be reality, just our experience.

On another site, I would have been told that I don't know what I am talking about because a 300 RUM is a shoulder breaker, but when a 5' 6" woman prefers to use it as a deer gun rather than her 7mm-08, it must not be :grin:

 

[taylorce1]

Shooting the same bullet weight...the one with the bigger powder charge (weight, in grains...not percentage), will usually have the most recoil....but these 2 are so close that you also have to look at the velocity generated by the load..."time" becomes a factor (recoil velocity)

I pointed that out as well.

I can't wait for him to get his new 280AI built, so I can buy it cheap after he feels the recoil. :lol:

I'll let you know when it comes available.

 

[PJGunner]

"Obviously, if he read it in a magazine somewhere, it is true. It is much the same as if you read it on the Internet, it is true."

Brings to mind a statement one fairly popular gun writer made about the 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist will not stabilize a 220 gr. bullet. My custom commercial FN Mauser in 30-06 has a 24" 1 in 12" twist which was wat I decided on as at he time I was shooting cast bullets almost exclusively. I kept hearing who a 1 in 12" ywist cannot be stabilized in a 1 in 12" twist so what the hell? I oad some up doing a full load work up for the rifle and .50 to .75" groups not onlt were the norm but a Winchester M70 in .308 that has a 1 in12" 22" barrel will put three 220 gr. Sierra round nose into .375 to .50" at 2310 FPS if I do my part. That BTW is only 90 FPS less that advertised velocities for a 30-06 and 220 gr. bullets. As far as I'm concerned that's two myths shot down in flames.
I did let that gun writer know of my rifle and what it would di with the 1 in 12"/220 gr.RN combo. I got back a nice letter saying he stood corrected and copiuos thank yous fr enlightening him and about 6 month later hinted in print I might not have done it. The sad part, by his own admission, he was gonna be in town and had my invite to watch me load the ammo, take it to the range and we both shoot the loads. This he chose not to do. Too bad I guess as it's his loss, not mine. Dunno if he and I will ever meet up but I hope we do. Maybe I can convince him to try the rifle the next time. I do doubt that either rifle would do well with a 190 to 200 gr. spitzer boat tail but they will stack those 220 gr. RNs quite nicely. Just goes toshow you, gun writers really do not know it all.
Paul B.

 

[wildgene]

...oh, no...

...we all know that gun writers only write for sponsers' money, but AlGore invented the internet so everything on it has to be true...

 

[C.Smith]

So I wonder why my 30-06 recoiled more than my 7Mag. Hmmm must be cause it was lighter. I don't udnerstand people sometimes. They put their thoughts and ideas on a public forum and get upset when they don't like what they hear. Its people like that, that keep me in business. LOL

Corey

 

[elkeater2]

You were right to back off, IMO. There isn't anything to be gained otherwise. We do make ourselves vulnerable when registering on forums that do PM's, and most do.

Funny thing is, there should be so little difference in felt recoil between the two to start with!
Congrats on taking the "high road". (which they don't always do at the same name place :lol: )
EE2

 

[meatmachineman]

Like other have said, I use this site as a source for reloading as it is for the most part kept in order with facts and experiences.

With that, felt recoil varies from person to person. With the rifles I have shot/have, I have the most aggressive or most felt recoil from most to least:

1) Early 70's vintage Ruger 7mm using factory core-lokt ammo
2) early 70's Remington 30-06 - most and load kicks like a mule
3) Model 7 30-06
4) 300 RUM XCR
5) 300 RUM Sendero tied with 6
6) 7mm-08 Weatherby
7) 7mm-08 Savage edge

There are more that fit in the mix, but this is how me and my wife rate the felt recoil of our most commonly shot rifles. I am sure that calculated or actual recoil will be different.

Now, I we were at the range and someone was shooting a 280AI, and after watching his body language, I would want no part of that rifle... and loud, man it is louder than our 300's with brakes. Again, perception may not be reality, just our experience.

On another site, I would have been told that I don't know what I am talking about because a 300 RUM is a shoulder breaker, but when a 5' 6" woman prefers to use it as a deer gun rather than her 7mm-08, it must not be :grin:

Perceived recoil really does vary a lot from person to person. I'm 6'5" and 265. My wife is 5'3" and 120. Take a guess which one of us prefers to shoot my M77 300WM! I'll do a 1/2 box of ammo and call it quits. She does 2 boxes and asks if I brought any more ammo. Recoil charts and tables only tell half the story. Gun design, gun fit, etc tells the rest of it.

 

[jmad_81]

One of the reasons I sold a 270 Win, and bought a 338 WM was the recoil didn't feel much different. Figured if I was going to get the crap knocked out of me, I may as well be shooting a big hunck of lead.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

Like other have said, I use this site as a source for reloading as it is for the most part kept in order with facts and experiences.

With that, felt recoil varies from person to person. With the rifles I have shot/have, I have the most aggressive or most felt recoil from most to least:

1) Early 70's vintage Ruger 7mm using factory core-lokt ammo
2) early 70's Remington 30-06 - most and load kicks like a mule
3) Model 7 30-06
4) 300 RUM XCR
5) 300 RUM Sendero tied with 6
6) 7mm-08 Weatherby
7) 7mm-08 Savage edge

There are more that fit in the mix, but this is how me and my wife rate the felt recoil of our most commonly shot rifles. I am sure that calculated or actual recoil will be different.

Now, I we were at the range and someone was shooting a 280AI, and after watching his body language, I would want no part of that rifle... and loud, man it is louder than our 300's with brakes. Again, perception may not be reality, just our experience.

On another site, I would have been told that I don't know what I am talking about because a 300 RUM is a shoulder breaker, but when a 5' 6" woman prefers to use it as a deer gun rather than her 7mm-08, it must not be :grin:

Perceived recoil really does vary a lot from person to person. I'm 6'5" and 265. My wife is 5'3" and 120. Take a guess which one of us prefers to shoot my M77 300WM! I'll do a 1/2 box of ammo and call it quits. She does 2 boxes and asks if I brought any more ammo. Recoil charts and tables only tell half the story. Gun design, gun fit, etc tells the rest of it.

There are more that fit in the mix, but this is how me and my wife rate the felt recoil of our most commonly shot rifles. I am sure that calculated or actual recoil will be different.
another thing is folks of small stature give with the recoil, roll with the punches so to speak, big folks hafta absorb it all, the most recoil sensative shooters I know are big guys.
RR

 

[338 Ultra]

I got a not so nice PM today on another forum for debunking the .280 AI myth, thought I'd bring the discussion over here because it was specific to Nosler's data. This other poster was quoting speeds out of the online Nosler data having the .280 AI besting the 7mm RM in FPS with 140 and 160 grain bullets. He was bragging about how he was going to get all the performance out of his .280 AI he was going to build and have nowhere near the recoil, and powder burnt to get the job done.

Well I'm not a 7mm RM fan of any kind but the whole thing sounded a little fishy to me so I had to check it out before I made the response I did. I just simply asked him to recheck the Nosler online data again, as I told him the load densities are higher in the .280 AI and it was actually burning a couple more grains of powder in most cases than the load data for the 7mm RM. So since he was getting a higher velocity and at higher operating pressures than the 7mm RM as well as burning more powder en an equal weight rifle the .280 AI was going to recoil more, but not enough more that you would see a difference in felt recoil.

I said he was right that the 7mm RM could recoil more but not with the data he was quoting if both rifles weighed the same. Then I went on to say that since he wanted to build a lighter rifle than his 7mm RM M700 BDL he owned that he would probably see about the same amount of recoil but possibly a little sharper as it would recoil faster. I told him that if he was wanting a .280 AI to get away from the recoil of the 7mm RM then he might want to reconsider.

Well anyway he sent me a not so nice PM today refrencing a few different rifle magazines and authors of articles on the .280 AI and how "they couldn't be wrong". Then went on to simply say that the 7mm RM had a 28% larger case capacity, and even though it was using less powder (of differnt types, and burn rates hello!) in the Nosler data that would cause it to recoil more. I'm no physics genius but even I know a larger cylinder builds pressure slower giving it a lower pressure spike and recoil impulse unless more of the space is filled to begin with.

Anyway he basically ended the PM with this comment "STUPID MFING A__HOLES LIKE YOU SHOULD STFU AND QUIT POSTING!" First time I've been attacked by PM like that, I didn't feel like posting a response to him would do anything for me. So I came here to vent a little I guess.

I feel for you man too many of those types around.So this guy can't handle the recoil of a 7 rem mag? Well that puts him out of a lot of cartridges in standard weight rifles recoil wise. Sounds like someone who should be looking at building a .260 Rem.I wonder if he understands how the AI cartridges don't show pressure signs like their parent cases untill pressures are getting beyond reasonable maximum for the brass. Well you can always hope that he has a light rifle built and loads it to it's full safe potential and gets smacked with fast snappy recoil.You will probably never hear how unhappy he is going to be once his bubble is bursted and perhaps won't get the chance for an I told you so, but rest assured you won hands down! His loss for not listening or even considering any information you gave him.

 

[hardcorehunter5]

taylorce1

Your PM buddy sounds like a typical liberal to me. Bases his response to you on emotion and opinion and not physics or facts. Common sense is in short supply these days.

-Hardcore

 

[taylorce1]

I'm not worried about what he said at all, just the first time I've been attacked like that by PM. I'm even decent friends with one of the Mods on that forum, so I could have flagged it to him. I just didn't think it was worth it since he didn't threaten me or my family in any way.

I usually get it some hateful public post after I get a little snarky when a question pops up like, "whats your thoughts on a M700 SPS in .308 caliber?" I usually say something like "its great especially when chambered in .30-06 and .300 Win." Of course I know the guy is asking about a .308 Win but I just wish people would realize that caliber and cartridge are not the same thing.

I just hope that he cooled down enough to realize that he is going to have to lower his expectations of the .280 AI in the end if he expects lower recoil. I told him if I wanted 7mm RM performance I'd stick with the 7mm Rem Mag and look for better reloading data, as the .280 AI could never match a properly stoked 7mm RM case. It sure was fun though to have a good discussion and help the guys that were willing to listen and think. Plus they do have an ignore feature so I don't ever see his posts now unless I want to.